the day after

Jelena Milić RSS / 06.11.2008. u 10:49

 

Obama will have many options on domestic policy given his majorities in Congress. But his Achilles' heel, as it was for Bush and for many presidents, will be foreign policy. He has made what appear to be three guarantees. First, he will withdraw from Iraq. Second, he will focus on Afghanistan. Third, he will oppose Russian expansionism. To deliver on the first promise, he must deal with the Iranians. To deliver on the second, he must deal with the Taliban. To deliver on the third, he must deal with the Europeans.

George Friedman

Obama's Challenge

Barack Obama has been elected president of the United States by a large majority in the Electoral College. The Democrats have dramatically increased their control of Congress, increasing the number of seats they hold in the House of Representatives and moving close to the point where - with a few Republican defections - they can have veto-proof control of the Senate. Given the age of some Supreme Court justices, Obama might well have the opportunity to appoint at least one and possibly two new justices. He will begin as one of the most powerful presidents in a long while.

Truly extraordinary were the celebrations held around the world upon Obama's victory. They affirm the global expectations Obama has raised - and reveal that the United States must be more important to Europeans than the latter like to admit. (We can't imagine late-night vigils in the United States over a French election.)

Obama is an extraordinary rhetorician, and as Aristotle pointed out, rhetoric is one of the foundations of political power. Rhetoric has raised him to the presidency, along with the tremendous unpopularity of his predecessor and a financial crisis that took a tied campaign and gave Obama a lead he carefully nurtured to victory. So, as with all politicians, his victory was a matter of rhetoric and, according to Machiavelli, luck. Obama had both, but now the question is whether he has Machiavelli's virtue in full by possessing the ability to exercise power. This last element is what governing is about, and it is what will determine if his presidency succeeds.

Embedded in his tremendous victory is a single weakness: Obama won the popular vote by a fairly narrow margin, about 52 percent of the vote. That means that almost as many people voted against him as voted for him.

Obama's Agenda vs. Expanding His Base

U.S. President George W. Bush demonstrated that the inability to understand the uses and limits of power can crush a presidency very quickly. The enormous enthusiasm of Obama's followers could conceal how he - like Bush - is governing a deeply, and nearly evenly, divided country. Obama's first test will be simple: Can he maintain the devotion of his followers while increasing his political base? Or will he believe, as Bush and Cheney did, that he can govern without concern for the other half of the country because he controls the presidency and Congress, as Bush and Cheney did in 2001? Presidents are elected by electoral votes, but they govern through public support.

Obama and his supporters will say there is no danger of a repeat of Bush - who believed he could carry out his agenda and build his political base at the same time, but couldn't. Building a political base requires modifying one's agenda. But when you start modifying your agenda, when you become pragmatic, you start to lose your supporters. If Obama had won with 60 percent of the popular vote, this would not be as pressing a question. But he barely won by more than Bush in 2004. Now, we will find out if Obama is as skillful a president as he was a candidate.

Obama will soon face the problem of beginning to disappoint people all over the world, a problem built into his job. The first disappointments will be minor. There are thousands of people hoping for appointments, some to Cabinet positions, others to the White House, others to federal agencies. Many will get something, but few will get as much as they hoped for. Some will feel betrayed and become bitter. During the transition process, the disappointed office seeker - an institution in American politics - will start leaking on background to whatever reporters are available. This will strike a small, discordant note; creating no serious problems, but serving as a harbinger of things to come.

Later, Obama will be sworn in. He will give a memorable, perhaps historic speech at his inauguration. There will be great expectations about him in the country and around the world. He will enjoy the traditional presidential honeymoon, during which all but his bitterest enemies will give him the benefit of the doubt. The press initially will adore him, but will begin writing stories about all the positions he hasn't filled, the mistakes he made in the vetting process and so on. And then, sometime in March or April, things will get interesting.

Iran and a U.S. Withdrawal From Iraq

Obama has promised to withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq, where he does not intend to leave any residual force. If he follows that course, he will open the door for the Iranians. Iran's primary national security interest is containing or dominating Iraq, with which Iran fought a long war. If the United States remains in Iraq, the Iranians will be forced to accept a neutral government in Iraq. A U.S. withdrawal will pave the way for the Iranians to use Iraqi proxies to create, at a minimum, an Iraqi government more heavily influenced by Iran.

Apart from upsetting Sunni and Kurdish allies of the United States in Iraq, the Iranian ascendancy in Iraq will disturb some major American allies - particularly the Saudis, who fear Iranian power. The United States can't afford a scenario under which Iranian power is projected into the Saudi oil fields. While that might be an unlikely scenario, it carries catastrophic consequences. The Jordanians and possibly the Turks, also American allies, will pressure Obama not simply to withdraw. And, of course, the Israelis will want the United States to remain in place to block Iranian expansion. Resisting a coalition of Saudis and Israelis will not be easy.

This will be the point where Obama's pledge to talk to the Iranians will become crucial. If he simply withdraws from Iraq without a solid understanding with Iran, the entire American coalition in the region will come apart. Obama has pledged to build coalitions, something that will be difficult in the Middle East if he withdraws from Iraq without ironclad Iranian guarantees. He therefore will talk to the Iranians. But what can Obama offer the Iranians that would induce them to forego their primary national security interest? It is difficult to imagine a U.S.-Iranian deal that is both mutually beneficial and enforceable.

Obama will then be forced to make a decision. He can withdraw from Iraq and suffer the geopolitical consequences while coming under fire from the substantial political right in the United States that he needs at least in part to bring into his coalition. Or, he can retain some force in Iraq, thereby disappointing his supporters. If he is clumsy, he could wind up under attack from the right for negotiating with the Iranians and from his own supporters for not withdrawing all U.S. forces from Iraq. His skills in foreign policy and domestic politics will be tested on this core question, and he undoubtedly will disappoint many.

The Afghan Dilemma

Obama will need to address Afghanistan next. He has said that this is the real war, and that he will ask U.S. allies to join him in the effort. This means he will go to the Europeans and NATO, as he has said he will do. The Europeans are delighted with Obama's victory because they feel Obama will consult them and stop making demands of them. But demands are precisely what he will bring the Europeans. In particular, he will want the Europeans to provide more forces for Afghanistan.

Many European countries will be inclined to provide some support, if for no other reason than to show that they are prepared to work with Obama. But European public opinion is not about to support a major deployment in Afghanistan, and the Europeans don't have the force to deploy there anyway. In fact, as the global financial crisis begins to have a more dire impact in Europe than in the United States, many European countries are actively reducing their deployments in Afghanistan to save money. Expanding operations is the last thing on European minds.

Obama's Afghan solution of building a coalition centered on the Europeans will thus meet a divided Europe with little inclination to send troops and with few troops to send in any event. That will force him into a confrontation with the Europeans in spring 2009, and then into a decision. The United States and its allies collectively lack the force to stabilize Afghanistan and defeat the Taliban. They certainly lack the force to make a significant move into Pakistan - something Obama has floated on several occasions that might be a good idea if force were in fact available.

He will have to make a hard decision on Afghanistan. Obama can continue the war as it is currently being fought, without hope of anything but a long holding action, but this risks defining his presidency around a hopeless war. He can choose to withdraw, in effect reinstating the Taliban, going back on his commitment and drawing heavy fire from the right. Or he can do what we have suggested is the inevitable outcome, namely, negotiate - and reach a political accord - with the Taliban. Unlike Bush, however, withdrawal or negotiation with the Taliban will increase the pressure on Obama from the right. And if this is coupled with a decision to delay withdrawal from Iraq, Obama's own supporters will become restive. His 52 percent Election Day support could deteriorate with remarkable speed.

The Russian Question

At the same time, Obama will face the Russian question. The morning after Obama's election, Russian President Dmitri Medvedev announced that Russia was deploying missiles in its European exclave of Kaliningrad in response to the U.S. deployment of ballistic missile defense systems in Poland. Obama opposed the Russians on their August intervention in Georgia, but he has never enunciated a clear Russia policy. We expect Ukraine will have shifted its political alignment toward Russia, and Moscow will be rapidly moving to create a sphere of influence before Obama can bring his attention - and U.S. power - to bear.

Obama will again turn to the Europeans to create a coalition to resist the Russians. But the Europeans will again be divided. The Germans can't afford to alienate the Russians because of German energy dependence on Russia and because Germany does not want to fight another Cold War. The British and French may be more inclined to address the question, but certainly not to the point of resurrecting NATO as a major military force. The Russians will be prepared to talk, and will want to talk a great deal, all the while pursuing their own national interest of increasing their power in what they call their "near abroad."

Obama will have many options on domestic policy given his majorities in Congress. But his Achilles' heel, as it was for Bush and for many presidents, will be foreign policy. He has made what appear to be three guarantees. First, he will withdraw from Iraq. Second, he will focus on Afghanistan. Third, he will oppose Russian expansionism. To deliver on the first promise, he must deal with the Iranians. To deliver on the second, he must deal with the Taliban. To deliver on the third, he must deal with the Europeans.

Global Finance and the European Problem

The Europeans will pose another critical problem, as they want a second Bretton Woods agreement. Some European states appear to desire a set of international regulations for the financial system. There are three problems with this.

First, unless Obama wants to change course dramatically, the U.S. and European positions differ over the degree to which governments will regulate interbank transactions. The Europeans want much more intrusion than the Americans. They are far less averse to direct government controls than the Americans have been. Obama has the power to shift American policy, but doing that will make it harder to expand his base.

Second, the creation of an international regulatory body that has authority over American banks would create a system where U.S. financial management was subordinated to European financial management.

And third, the Europeans themselves have no common understanding of things. Obama could thus quickly be drawn into complex EU policy issues that could tie his hands in the United States. These could quickly turn into painful negotiations, in which Obama's allure to the Europeans will evaporate.

One of the foundations of Obama's foreign policy - and one of the reasons the Europeans have celebrated his election - was the perception that Obama is prepared to work closely with the Europeans. He is in fact prepared to do so, but his problem will be the same one Bush had: The Europeans are in no position to give the things that Obama will need from them - namely, troops, a revived NATO to confront the Russians and a global financial system that doesn't subordinate American financial authority to an international bureaucracy.

The Hard Road Ahead

Like any politician, Obama will face the challenge of having made a set of promises that are not mutually supportive. Much of his challenge boils down to problems that he needs to solve and that he wants European help on, but the Europeans are not prepared to provide the type and amount of help he needs. This, plus the fact that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq requires an agreement with Iran - something hard to imagine without a continued U.S. presence in Iraq - gives Obama a difficult road to move on.

As with all American presidents (who face midterm elections with astonishing speed), Obama's foreign policy moves will be framed by his political support. Institutionally, he will be powerful. In terms of popular support, he begins knowing that almost half the country voted against him, and that he must increase his base. He must exploit the honeymoon period, when his support will expand, to bring another 5 percent or 10 percent of the public into his coalition. These people voted against him; now he needs to convince them to support him. But these are precisely the people who would regard talks with the Taliban or Iran with deep distrust. And if negotiations with the Iranians cause him to keep forces in Iraq, he will alienate his base without necessarily winning over his opponents.

And there is always the unknown. There could be a terrorist attack, the Russians could start pressuring the Baltic states, the Mexican situation could deteriorate. The unknown by definition cannot be anticipated. And many foreign leaders know it takes an administration months to settle in, something some will try to take advantage of. On top of that, there is now nearly a three-month window in which the old president is not yet out and the new president not yet in.

Obama must deal with extraordinarily difficult foreign policy issues in the context of an alliance failing not because of rough behavior among friends but because the allies' interests have diverged. He must deal with this in the context of foreign policy positions difficult to sustain and reconcile, all against the backdrop of almost half an electorate that voted against him versus supporters who have enormous hopes vested in him. Obama knows all of this, of course, as he indicated in his victory speech.

We will now find out if Obama understands the exercise of political power as well as he understands the pursuit of that power. You really can't know that until after the fact. There is no reason to think he can't finesse these problems. Doing so will take cunning, trickery and the ability to make his supporters forget the promises he made while keeping their support. It will also require the ability to make some of his opponents embrace him despite the path he will have to take. In other words, he will have to be cunning and ruthless without appearing to be cunning and ruthless. That's what successful presidents do.

In the meantime, he should enjoy the transition. It's frequently the best part of a presidency.

November 5, 2008

By George Friedman

Tell Stratfor What You Think



Komentari (110)

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Dobar

clanak.
Preporuka za Friedmana :)
Inner Party Inner Party 11:25 06.11.2008

Promises

Like any politician, Obama will face the challenge of having made a set of promises that are not mutually supportive.


To deliver on the first promise, he must deal with the Iranians. To deliver on the second, he must deal with the Taliban. To deliver on the third, he must deal with the Europeans.


Ljudima koji su glasali za Obamu je vaznije stanje u Americi. Oni kojima banka upravo oduzima kucu nisu previse zabrinuti za Irak, Iran, Rusiju i Evropu.

Obama moze da ispuni obecanje da ce brinuti o Amerikancima...

vracarac92 vracarac92 12:04 06.11.2008

Re: Promises

Obama moze da ispuni obecanje da ce brinuti o Amerikancima...

Amerikanci dobili Obamu a mi, na žalost, Bajdena.
Inner Party Inner Party 12:13 06.11.2008

Re: Promises

vracarac92
Obama moze da ispuni obecanje da ce brinuti o Amerikancima...

Amerikanci dobili Obamu a mi, na žalost, Bajdena.


Daj Boze da se na tome i zavrsi.
Samo da im ne padnu na pamet Klark i Holbruk.
Klarka vec hvale kako je uspesno vodio "Kosovo war" ...
vracarac92 vracarac92 12:19 06.11.2008

Re: Promises

Samo da im ne padnu na pamet Klark i Holbruk.

Pu, pu, daleko bilo.
vladimir petrovic vladimir petrovic 16:39 06.11.2008

Re: Promises

Vracarac92
... Amerikanci dobili Obamu a mi, na žalost, Bajdena.


Lepo uoceno. Uobicajeno je da americki potpredsednici nisu vazni (oni stupaju na scenu tek u tragicnom slucaju - kada se nesto desi predsedniku), te na njih se ne obraca mnogo paznje. Osim u slucajevima kada nekome zele da naude, pa, pored ostalog, uticu na drzavnog sekretara (MIP) i one koji kreiraju spoljnu politiku (jer Mr Bajden se, na zalost, u to najvise razume). Moze da nam nanosi stete, ali na to smo vec navikli kada su Ameri u pitanju. Valjda ce i njima da dosadi da se kace toliko sa Srbijicom, he, he, he...
Inner Party Inner Party 18:49 06.11.2008

Re: Promises

vladimir petrovic
Moze da nam nanosi stete, ali na to smo vec navikli kada su Ameri u pitanju. Valjda ce i njima da dosadi da se kace toliko sa Srbijicom, he, he, he...


Bring it on!

Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 11:35 06.11.2008

djz

Obama is an extraordinary rhetorician, and as Aristotle pointed out, rhetoric is one of the foundations of political power. Rhetoric has raised him to the presidency, along with the tremendous unpopularity of his predecessor and a financial crisis that took a tied campaign and gave Obama a lead he carefully nurtured to victory. So, as with all politicians, his victory was a matter of rhetoric and, according to Machiavelli, luck. Obama had both, but now the question is whether he has Machiavelli's virtue in full by possessing the ability to exercise power. This last element is what governing is about, and it is what will determine if his presidency succeeds.

Imali i mi jednog takvog "rhetorician", mislim se, ali sta ces....

Re: djz

funny you said that.
Moj Zmu mi juce rece kako ga BO podseca na ZDj.
RodjenaIstogDatumaKadIZDj
(mozda mu i ja licim na BO?:)))
Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 11:50 06.11.2008

Re: djz

ma da, muz u pravo 100%..
bese 4. avg. ?
ja 18 dana kasnije...

Re: djz

ne 01.08.
antioksidant antioksidant 12:21 06.11.2008

Re: djz

Moj Zmu mi juce rece kako ga BO podseca na ZDj.

po cemu?
zdj nije sastavio 1 dan sa vecinskom podrskom medju glasacima.

sdj je imao sposobnost da sprovede potrebno

za bo se nadam da ima tu sposobnost. videcemo

Re: djz

na licnom i oratorskom nivou
antioksidant antioksidant 12:29 06.11.2008

Re: djz

Ana WithAFamilyNameTooHardToPron
na licnom i oratorskom nivou

kad zastanem i razmislim (retko mi se desava) vidim slicnost i u postojanju optimizma.

ali zdj nije mogao svojim oratorstvom da nadahne masu (ne racunajuci ono vreme zime 96 na 97 ali i on je tada bio deo jedne siroke i sveobuhvatne poruke (i vuk i vesna su bili deo celine zajedno sa njim))

ne kazem da je njegova poruka bila nenadahnuta. mozda je mi (glasaci) nismo bili spremni cuti

tesko je sebe vratiti u vreme pre njegove smrti i setiti se svojih tadasnjih stavova o njemu. sad ga svi ali svi vole, cene, postuju...

dan pre nego sto su ga ubili nije imao 5% podrske

gde smo bili mi koji ga sad podrzavamo?

ps - ana, ovo je slucajno zakaceno a tvoj post. jednostavno me podsetilo.

rastuzujes ovakvim podsecanjima

Re: djz

ja ne mislim da ce se bo desiti ista sudbina kao zdj. kljucna razlika je u procentu populacije koji ga podrzava
antioksidant antioksidant 12:35 06.11.2008

Re: djz

ja ne mislim da ce se bo desiti ista sudbina kao zdj

ma to nikako.nisma bas siguran u njegovu sposobnost "to deliver" (da prihvatim fridmanov nacin izrazavanja).

veliki je to posao za velike ljude. a bo jeste veliki cim se nasao ovde (posavsi sa pozicije sa koje je posao).

zelim mu srecu. njegov uspeh znacice poboljsanje kvaliteta zivota na celoj planeti
Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 12:44 06.11.2008

Re: djz

ali zdj nije mogao svojim oratorstvom da nadahne masu

pa ne mislim da si u pravu....secam se na desetine njegovih goovora koji su bili sjajno primljeni, a pogotovo onaj pred kraj u Skupstini u vezi spavanja...
antioksidant antioksidant 12:52 06.11.2008

Re: djz

pa ne mislim da si u pravu....secam se na desetine njegovih goovora koji su bili sjajno primljeni, a pogotovo onaj pred kraj u Skupstini u vezi spavanja...

trut


nije dosao, doneli smo ga

a spavanje je bilo u parlamentu (vi gospodo iz dss-a ako ste umorni idite pa spavajte)

don't get me wrong

ja se samo pitam sta to nismo videli dok nam je bilo pred ocima a jedini razlog je da ne propustimo to isto ako se ponovo pojavi. zdj nije imao nikakvu podrsku. nikada. najvise glasova oko 400 000 kada je uzeo stranku micunu. sta da ti kazem. ja sam tek glasac stranke koja se nikada nije ni pojavila samostalno na izborima (dok god je postojala). i ne vidim nista sporno u tome. jedino sam siguran da se neke stvari mnoooogo lakse sprovedu ako imas plebiscitarnu podrsku. ona (podrska) sama po sebi ne znaci nista. ima je tadic ali ja (ajd da budem pristojan - ovo je moj licni stav) ne vidim koristi od toga (sem onima koji zastupaju "nacionalno" pomirenje po svaku cenu)

ali, ovo je vec trol. neka neko brise ako je preveliko skretanje sa teme
Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 13:07 06.11.2008

Re: djz

ja se samo pitam sta to nismo videli dok nam je bilo pred ocima

pa sad, neko je video neko nije. MIslis da su svi videli u Obami sjajnog oratora?
zdj nije imao nikakvu podrsku. nikada.

to je zato sto nije populisticki palamudio, nego je bobu rekao bob, eh sad sto mi kao narod volimo fraze i floskule i revolucionarne usklike nego realnost to je problem s kojim se nosimmo na ovaj ili onaj nacin...srbi vise vole da cuju ko je izdajnik mego sta im se nudi u buducnosti
jedino sam siguran da se neke stvari mnoooogo lakse sprovedu ako imas plebiscitarnu podrsku.

iz iskustva znam da, sto se srbije tice, nijedna plebiscitarna podrska nije nam izasla na dobro
ali, ovo je vec trol.

bas sam to hteo da kazem...
nego, sta ce sada Michael Moore da radi...?
antioksidant antioksidant 13:19 06.11.2008

Re: djz

nego, sta ce sada Michael Moore da radi...?

da trazi natrag 700 milijardi

a nece ih dobiti

ivana23 ivana23 13:34 06.11.2008

Re: djz

Aleksandar Stosic
nego, sta ce sada Michael Moore da radi...?

Bio je danas kod Larija Kinga na CNNu... nisam imala vremena da se udubljujem u pricu. Videla u prolazu.
vladimir petrovic vladimir petrovic 16:43 06.11.2008

Re: djz


...kako ga BO podseca na ZDj.

Kakva su to uporedjenja Baraka Obame za Zoranom Djindjicem.
Pomalo - nesuvislo!
Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 16:46 06.11.2008

Re: djz


Kakva su to uporedjenja Baraka Obame za Zoranom Djindjicem.
Pomalo - nesuvislo!

?
palilula92 palilula92 16:49 06.11.2008

Re: djz

Bila sam na Obaminom mitingu pre neki mesec dana. Slusajuci kako govori, podsetio me je na Djinjdica. Iako su im stilovi drugaciji, postoji slicnost u pozitivnoj eneriji koja se siri za vreme njihovih govora.
Sofroniye Sofroniye 11:50 06.11.2008

Iza svakog ugla vreba

Dragan Kojic bin Laden. Danas u Somaliji nove otmice sto je u skladu sa teorijom da ce Ladenko da udara po istocnoj Africi cisto da testira novopecenog preCednika. Palestinci ispalili 42 projektila na Izrael, Medvedev izjavio da ce postaviti Iskander na Poljsku granicu :) Da vidimo sta ce mu sad "Yes we did it" pomoci :) verovatno moze da smisli neki zesci slogan i da impresionira sve ove :)
d_sandic d_sandic 11:56 06.11.2008

Re: Iza svakog ugla vreba

Da vidimo sta ce mu sad "Yes we did it" pomoci :) verovatno moze da smisli neki zesci slogan i da impresionira sve ove :)



Brzo će on usvojiti omiljeni slogan američkih predsednika:

' kill them all!'
Aleksandar Stosic Aleksandar Stosic 11:55 06.11.2008

da dodam

Mogao je Friedman to i bolje. Nigde ni slova o Severnoj Koreji, nigde ni slova o Kubi, Venezueli, Boliviji i tamosnjim predsednicima...ok, cestitao Chaves juce, ali ....
A da ne pricamo o finansijskoj krizi, Kyto protokolu koje me posebno zanima kako ce se tu ponasati, ulozi UN u danasnjoj podeli sveta (ulozi?!),....
Inner Party Inner Party 12:15 06.11.2008

Avganistan

Sta li mu znaci ono "posvetice se Avganistanu"...

Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 12:30 06.11.2008

Re: Avganistan

mozda ce biti dobrog hashisha u USA i na trzistu lojalnom voljenim SAD. :love:

antioksidant antioksidant 12:32 06.11.2008

Re: Avganistan

mozda ce biti dobrog hashisha u USA i na trzistu lojalnom voljenim SAD. :love

sto bi to bilo novo?

nije valjda da vlada nestasica?
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 12:36 06.11.2008

Re: Avganistan

kod nas hizbula ubacuje neku hemiju pa zatvorila vlada chesmu, ali eto, mozhda ce "mitevolemobaracheobamo" da nabavi novog dobrog stafa. :loveosama...khkashlj...OBAMA:
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 12:54 06.11.2008

nevezano za avganca

zanimljiva je ta tema kako se fino siajej druzhi sa raznoraznim dilerima diljem sveta. bio je odlichan chlanak na tu temu u nytimes, negde na prolece 2000., o shvercu ukrajinki i moldavki preko bugarske, srbije, kosova, albanije, u italiju i eu... kao, radi se sve super, svi sa svakim, devojke, upucene preko agencija za zaposhljavanje na rad u evropu, prebacuje bugarska i srpska/cg murija, do skadra, tamo su izlozhene danonocnim tetoshenjima, pa preko albanije na "trzhishte" u eu. zakleti neprijatelji sa zakletim neprijateljima (neshto u fazonu kao poslovni saradnici duleta pacova u fantastichnim rodama)... onda 2000. uleti siajej u biz, prema nytimesu, ali samo toliko da se ushemi za nekih 1.5 GB $ godishnje, a biznis se neometano nastavlja... bash cu probati da iskopam taj chlanak...

edit> pitam se ovako, chisto sebe radi, da li ce i tome prichljivi BaracheObamo pristupiti u fazonu "yes, we can change it"? da li ce prekinuti te obichaje? opet, sudeci po glasinama chiji stipendista mu je potpredsednik...
d_sandic d_sandic 13:12 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

zaposhljavanje na rad u evropu, prebacuje bugarska i srpska/cg murija, do skadra, tamo su izlozhene danonocnim tetoshenjima, pa preko albanije na "trzhishte" u eu. zakleti neprijatelji sa zakletim neprijateljima (neshto u fazonu kao poslovni saradnici duleta pacova u fantastichnim rodama)...


Da proširim. Tokom rata u BiH mi ( pripadnici OS Rep. Srpske) smo se razbacivali municijom Zavoda CZ iz Kragujevca proizvedenom 1976,1977... Našoj sreći nije bilo kraja. Dok ,kod zarobljenih i likvidiranih protivnika ,nismo pronašli znatne količine iste te municije proizvedene 1993. Tu smo se malo zbunili. Zbunjeni smo i danas!
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 13:27 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

d_sandic
zaposhljavanje na rad u evropu, prebacuje bugarska i srpska/cg murija, do skadra, tamo su izlozhene danonocnim tetoshenjima, pa preko albanije na "trzhishte" u eu. zakleti neprijatelji sa zakletim neprijateljima (neshto u fazonu kao poslovni saradnici duleta pacova u fantastichnim rodama)... Da proširim. Tokom rata u BiH mi ( pripadnici OS Rep. Srpske) smo se razbacivali municijom Zavoda CZ iz Kragujevca proizvedenom 1976,1977... Našoj sreći nije bilo kraja. Dok ,kod zarobljenih i likvidiranih protivnika ,nismo pronašli znatne količine iste te municije proizvedene 1993. Tu smo se malo zbunili. Zbunjeni smo i danas!



shtoshta se deshavalo u Bosni. to samo NATO zna. bilo bi, svakako, odlichno za javnost, kada bi se Mladic predao pa da pratimo njegovo sudjenje. ovo shto Vas, gospodine Veteranu rata, zbunjuje bih rekao da se jednostavno naziva - namenska industrija.
d_sandic d_sandic 13:30 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

shtoshta se deshavalo u Bosni. to samo NATO zna. bilo bi, svakako, odlichno za javnost, kada bi se Mladic predao pa da pratimo njegovo sudjenje. ovo shto Vas, gospodine Veteranu rata, zbunjuje bih rekao da se jednostavno naziva - namenska industrija.


Ma više me zbunjuje paralela sa bunom Petra Mrkonjića i onoga što se posle događalo. Čini mi se da je politika jako statična. Što se Mladića tiče, ne treba da se predaje. Treba da se ubije. Razloga je na pretek.
antioksidant antioksidant 13:37 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Što se Mladića tiče, ne treba da se predaje. Treba da se ubije. Razloga je na pretek.

a nijedan razlog ne polazi od cinjenice da je ljudski zivot svetinja

olako pozivate na samoubistvo
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 13:39 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

d_sandic
Ma više me zbunjuje paralela sa bunom Petra Mrkonjića i onoga što se posle događalo. Čini mi se da je politika jako statična. Što se Mladića tiče, ne treba da se predaje. Treba da se ubije. Razloga je na pretek.


ne znam o kakvoj buni je rech?

samoubistvo bi bilo logichan ishod, s obzirom da se vraca Administracija protiv koje je vodio rat verovatno je da ne bi imao fer sudjenje. premda mislim da bi generalova dobrovoljna predaja i suprotstavljanje sudu javnosti donelo mozda i neku vrstu katarze srpskom drushtvu. pretpostavljam kazem, ponovo, za polemiku je koliko je medjunarodni sud pravde objektivna i izbalansiranog ophodjenja institucija.
antioksidant antioksidant 13:41 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

za polemiku je koliko medjunarodni sud pravde objektivna i izbalansiranog ophodjenja institucija.

vrlo malo

ali ja ne shvatam zasto se mladicu tako olako uskracuje pravo da nastavi da bude ono sto jeste - begunac

posao drzave jeste da ga privede na sudjenje

mladiceva obaveza je samo prema njemu i ako on procenjuje da na tom sudjenju nema sta da trazi neka bezi
d_sandic d_sandic 13:44 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

ne znam o kakvoj buni je rech?


Buna potonjeg Kralja Petra Prvog u Bosni pre austrougarske okupacije. Tada su Srbi bili većinsko stanovništvo u BiH i želeli da zaokruže svoj nacionalni prostor nakon otomanske okupacije. Prošli su kao u Dejtonu. To se tada zvalo 'berlinski kongres'.
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 13:55 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

slazem se da je Mladicev interes da ostane fugitive. medjutim, interes nas gradjana je da se preda vlastima i da ode u hag. ne mogu da zamislim kakve tajne drzhavnog i vojnog aparata su mu toliko vaznije od doborobiti srpskog drushtva, pa chak i srpskih zhivota (ako podjemo od pretpostavke da je njegovo obezbedjenje pucalo na one dechake, "gardiste", pre par godina)? uostalom, mogao bi i da otkriva druge tajne, naprimer o poziciji NATO-a na pochetku YU-gradjanskog rata? svakako ima prava da ostane u bekstvu, ali za nas je bolje kada bi predao. mada, ne gajim iluzije da ce to srbiji doneti neka rapidna poboljshanja standarda ili ugleda u medjunarodnoj zajednici.
d_sandic d_sandic 13:55 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

olako pozivate na samoubistvo


Gospodine, kada u ratu učestvujete 4 godine umesto 2,3 meseca koliko je realno bilo potrebno, kada izgubite dom, nekoliko prijatelja, predhodni način života i krenete,ne od nule, nego iz minusa razumećete zašto ga olako pozivam na samoubistvo.
Srđan Fuchs Srđan Fuchs 14:00 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

pa, ljudi su oduvek bili pijuni u rukama politichara. rat je, uvek, besmislen kada se saberu svi rachuni. jednostavno se nije trebalo povoditi za zapaljivim politichkim govorima srpskih vodja. upotrebljeni ste. sada ce vam biti potrebne decenije da se u potpunosti rehabilitujete nakon svega kroz shta ste proshli.
d_sandic d_sandic 14:01 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

mladiceva obaveza je samo prema njemu i ako on procenjuje da na tom sudjenju nema sta da trazi neka bezi

Ovo se već ni za mene, j...og rezervnog p. poručnika tih godina, ne može reći. Vodiš rat, upropastiš ga, napraviš nepotrebno sranje (za nas Srbe, drugima preko potrebno) na Srebrenici.. I , pali brate, ilegala. Nikom ništa ne duguješ! Da se razumemo u Hag ni kuče ne bi poslao. Posle Nasera su izgubili i onaj promil kredibiliteta. Mladić treba da se rokne zbog nesposobnosti!
antioksidant antioksidant 14:01 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

medjutim, interes nas gradjana je da se preda vlastima i da ode u hag

interes nas gradjana je da on bude u hagu.
ali drzavni cinovnici su placeni da ispune zadovolje interese nas gradjana. mladic nije.

zato ne trazim predaju. ako se preda - ok,ali ne cekam predaju.

Gospodine, kada u ratu učestvujete 4 godine umesto 2,3 meseca koliko je realno bilo potrebno, kada izgubite dom, nekoliko prijatelja, predhodni način života i krenete,ne od nule, nego iz minusa razumećete zašto ga olako pozivam na samoubistvo.

ako je sve to dovelo do vaseg licnog gubitka postovanja za bilo ciji ljudski zivot mogu samo reci da mi je zao. ja ipak smatram da covek ne treba pozivati bilo ciju smrt. postoje nacini kaznjavanja krivaca koji ne podrazumevaju ubistvo. postoji nacini resavanja i ove situacije sa mladicem koji ne podrazumevaju prizivanje samoubistva

ps - da budem jasniji, zao mi je zbog losih stvari koje su vam se desile, koje ste videli u svkom slucaju (nije da vi nesto imate od toga nego...)

pozdrav
d_sandic d_sandic 14:02 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

sada ce vam biti potrebne decenije da se u potpunosti rehabilitujete nakon svega kroz shta ste proshli.


A da odemo na neku nezavisnu, stručnu procenu? Ja častim.
antioksidant antioksidant 14:04 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

I , pali brate, ilegala. Nikom ništa ne duguješ!

nije bas da ne duguje. zato ga treba hapsiti bezao on ili ne.

a sto se tice haga - koja je alternativa? da mu se sudi u beogradu? ili sarajevu"

koliko god sudjenja u hagu bila bez kredibiliteta tek sudjenja ovde na balkanu bi bila ...

ma setite se lore...
d_sandic d_sandic 14:07 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

nije bas da ne duguje. zato ga treba hapsiti bezao on ili ne.

a sto se tice haga - koja je alternativa? da mu se sudi u beogradu? ili sarajevu"

koliko god sudjenja u hagu bila bez kredibiliteta tek sudjenja ovde na balkanu bi bila ...

ma setite se lore...


Zbog toga i kažem: da sudi sam sebi. Ako je čovek i oficir.
antioksidant antioksidant 14:11 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Zbog toga i kažem: da sudi sam sebi. Ako je čovek i oficir

ako je istina deseti deo onog uzasa koji je mni poznat onda nije ni jedno ni drugo

samo arogantni proizvod izuzetno tupe masinerije za ubijanje ljudskog dostojanstva (jna)

tu ni ljudskosti ni oficirske casti nema
d_sandic d_sandic 14:14 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

ako je istina deseti deo onog uzasa koji je mni poznat onda nije ni jedno ni drugo

samo arogantni proizvod izuzetno tupe masinerije za ubijanje ljudskog dostojanstva (jna)

tu ni ljudskosti ni oficirske casti nema


Da, ali njegovu komunističku zatucanost pripisuju nama!
vracarac92 vracarac92 14:20 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

olako pozivate na samoubistvo
Doduše i mi smo pozivali Miloševića da izvrši samoubistvo devedesetih.
d_sandic d_sandic 14:22 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Doduše i mi smo pozivali Miloševića da izvrši samoubistvo devedesetih.


Na žalost nije nas poslušao.
antioksidant antioksidant 14:23 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Doduše i mi smo pozivali Miloševića da izvrši samoubistvo devedesetih.

vracarac, dok si to pevao da li si ozbiljno pozivao skota da se ubije ili ti je jedini cilj bio da se iznervira i ponizi (a bio je iznerviran sto se na onoj tekmi sa torpedom i videlo)??

ovo sa mladicem ljudi ozbiljno misle. pozivaju ga na sepuku
antioksidant antioksidant 14:24 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Da, ali njegovu komunističku zatucanost pripisuju nama!

a mislis da bi se "njihovo" misljenje o "nama" promenilo jednim samoubistvom?
d_sandic d_sandic 14:27 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

a mislis da bi se "njihovo" misljenje o "nama" promenilo jednim samoubistvom?


Ne, ali bi mi imali jedno poniženje a oni jedan argument manje. Pošto se nikada nećemo naplatiti za sr..a koja su nam napravili, bar da ih zaj....o!
vracarac92 vracarac92 14:31 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Na žalost nije nas poslušao.
Na žalost.
vracarac, dok si to pevao da li si ozbiljno pozivao skota da se ubije ili ti je jedini cilj bio da se iznervira i ponizi (a bio je iznerviran sto se na onoj tekmi sa torpedom i videlo)??
Veruj mi ne bih se mnogo bunio i da je poslušao. Spasao bi nas bar malo muke.
trilogy trilogy 21:32 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

ja ipak smatram da covek ne treba pozivati bilo ciju smrt. postoje nacini kaznjavanja krivaca koji ne podrazumevaju ubistvo. postoji nacini resavanja i ove situacije sa mladicem koji ne podrazumevaju prizivanje samoubistva

I ja smatram da ne treba pozivati ni na cije samoubistvo, vec je trebalo da se on sam na to odluci. nije on bio apotekar pa da je nezamislivo da se ubije zbog nekog neuspijeha. On je bio komandant vojske koja je dobijeni rat izgubila, a vojnicki poziv ima 3000 - 4000 godina takvu tradiciju. "Uneasy is the head that wears a crown", Da mu je tad neko rekao da je nesposoban i da cemo izgubiti rat,da treba da stvar prepusti nekom sposobnijem, ne vjerujem da bi se nanosio glave na ramenima. Sad su malo dugovi dosli na naplatu, ali je ispalo da mu je ipak milije da cami negdje po novobeogradskim blokovima ili da zavija sa romanijskim vukovima, nego da uradi ono sto je njegova duznost. Visok polozaj u tim vremenima je otprilike kocka u kojoj su ulozi maksimalni. Ili zivot u svili i kadifi ili smrt u blatu. Jos je on krenuo u tu partiju sa dva keca u rukama. Sad lagano braticu, smisli neku akcijicu kako da to sve izgleda sto romanticnije i otidji u istoriju dostojanstveno.
Takodje mislim da bi i za Srbe i Srbiju bilo najbezbolnije kada bi on tako postupio
vladimir petrovic vladimir petrovic 22:04 06.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

Antioksidant
ovo sa mladicem ljudi ozbiljno misle. pozivaju ga na sepuku


Dragan Milenkovic, koji se aka sa japanstinom, pise SEPPUKU (dakle, sa dva p), a samo ponekad hara-kiri
tyson tyson 02:30 07.11.2008

Re: nevezano za avganca

d_sandic
Tokom rata u BiH mi ( pripadnici OS Rep. Srpske) smo se razbacivali municijom Zavoda CZ iz Kragujevca proizvedenom 1976,1977... Našoj sreći nije bilo kraja. Dok ,kod zarobljenih i likvidiranih protivnika ,nismo pronašli znatne količine iste te municije proizvedene 1993.

Ma jesi li siguran da je baš tako bilo?

Zastava Namenska nikada nije proizvodila municiju.





bik_koji_sedi bik_koji_sedi 13:06 06.11.2008

...

Russian expansionism

држ`те лопова!
rayzippo rayzippo 13:23 06.11.2008

Re: ...

bik_koji_sedi
Russian expansionismдрж`те лопова!

ote mi slova sa tastature...ko o cemu;baba o ustipcima, ameri o rusima...
d_sandic d_sandic 13:39 06.11.2008

Re: ...

Russian expansionism


Reče predsednik države kojoj je rat visoko pozicioniran izvozni proizvod! Evo , ja se crvenim umesto njega.
DejanOz DejanOz 13:45 06.11.2008

Re: ...

rayzippo
bik_koji_sedi
Russian expansionismдрж`те лопова!

ote mi slova sa tastature...ko o cemu;baba o ustipcima, ameri o rusima...

A i obratno. Ko zna, if we're lucky, mozda gledamo i reprizu 'ladnog rata.
spinnacker spinnacker 13:25 06.11.2008

harpersov ugao...American Void...


There is something desperately lonely about Barack Obama’s universe. One gets the overwhelming sense of someone yearning for connection, for something that binds human beings together, for community and commonality, for what he repeatedly calls “the common good.” Of course, this is hardly news. We’ve known since his keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention that “there’s not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America—there’s the United States of America.” Obama’s remedy to the widespread disillusion with politics in the U.S. is a reaffirmation of the act of union. This is possible only insofar as we restore a sense of community to the nation. That, in turn, requires a belief in the common good. In the face of grotesque inequality, governmental sleaze, and generalized anomie, we need “to affirm our bonds with one another.” Belief in the common good is the sole basis for hope. Without belief, there is nothing to be done. Such is the avowedly improbable basis for Obama’s entire push for the presidency.

The obvious criticism one could make is that Obama’s politics is governed by an anti-political fantasy. It lies behind the appeal to the common good, that “no one is exempt from the call to find common ground”; or “not so far beneath the surface, I think, we are becoming more, not less, alike.” This, one might claim, is the familiar delusion of an end to politics, the postulation of a state where we can put aside our differences, overcome partisanship, and come together in order to heal the nation. The same longing for unity governs Obama’s discourse on race, with his call for a black-brown alliance and his appeasing remark that “rightly or wrongly, white guilt has largely exhausted itself.” Obama dreams of a society without power relations, without the agonism that constitutes political life. Against such a position one might assert that justice is always an agon, a conflict, and to refuse this assertion is to consign human beings to wallow in some emotional, fusional balm. One might add that the source of this longing for union is its absence. We anxiously want to believe, because we don’t and we can’t. The yearning for the common good comes from the refusal to accept that perhaps Americans have very little in common apart from the elements of a sometimes successful civil religion based around a sentimental, indeed sometimes teary-eyed, attachment to the Constitution and a belief in the quasi-divine wisdom of the Founding Fathers.

In the face of George W. Bush’s ultra-political presidency—his massive extension of executive power and his prosecution of a politics of fear based on the identification of an enemy as morally evil—it is not difficult to understand the popularity of Obama’s anti-political vision. Against the messianic certainties of Bush II, Obama promises a return to a beatific liberalism whereby everything is seen sub specie consensus. This is a world where good old democratic deliberation replaces decisionism and where the to and fro of civil conversation replaces religious absolutism. Democracy is not a house to be built but “a conversation to be had.” After eight disastrous years of gross mismanagement, secrecy, and lies, it sounds like an absolutely blissful prospect.

Of course, one might wonder how Obama’s evacuation of power relations in the political realm goes together with his faith in the agon of capitalism, competition, and the salutary effects of free markets. One might also wonder how such a political position might genuinely begin to deal with poverty. But I don’t want to go down the route of the classic critique of liberalism, according to which politics is evacuated in favor of the bifurcation of ethics, on the one hand, and economics, on the other, and the former is the veil of hypocrisy used to conceal the violence of the latter. I do not even want to propose a critique of Obama. Rather, I’d like to describe a puzzlement that I don’t think I am the only one to experience. What fascinates me is what we might call Obama’s subjectivity and how it forms his political vision and how this might begin to explain his extraordinary popular appeal.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After watching countless speeches and carefully reading his words, I have absolutely no sense of who Barack Obama is. It’s very odd. The more one listens and reads, the greater the sense of opacity. Take The Audacity of Hope: there is an easy, informal, and relaxed style to Obama’s prose. He talks about going to the gym, ordering a cheeseburger, planning his daughter’s birthday party, and all the rest. He mixes position statements and general policy outlines with autobiographical narrative in a compelling and fluent way. Yet I found myself repeatedly asking: Who is this man? I don’t mean anything sinister by this. It is just that I was overcome by a sense of distance in reading Obama, and the more sincere the prose, the greater distance I felt. He confesses early on that he is not someone who easily gets worked up about things. But sometimes I rather wish he would. Anger is the emotion that produces motion, the mood that moves the subject to act. Perhaps it is the first political emotion.

At the core of The Audacity of Hope is someone who lives at a distance, someone distanced from himself and from others and craving a bond, a commitment to bind him together with other Americans and to bind Americans together. There is a true horror vacui in Obama, a terror of loneliness and nothingness. He yearns for an unconditional commitment that will shape his subjectivity and fill the vacuum. He desires contact with some plenitude, an experience of fullness that might still his sense of loneliness, fill his isolation, silence his endless doubt, and assuage his feelings of abandonment. He seems to find this in Christianity, to which I will turn shortly.

But perhaps this opacity is Obama’s political genius: that it is precisely the enigmatic, inert character of Obama that seems to generate the desire to identify with him, indeed to love him. Perhaps it is that sense of internal distance that people see in him and in themselves. Obama recognizes this capacity in an intriguing and profound remark when he writes, “I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.” He is a mirror that reflects back whatever the viewer wants to see. Somehow our loneliness and doubt become focused and fused with his. Obama’s desire for union with a common good becomes unified with ours. For that moment, and maybe only for that moment, we believe, we hope. It is a strangely restrained ecstasy, but an ecstasy nonetheless.

The occasional lyricism of Obama’s prose is possessed of a great beauty. His doubts about being a father and a husband in the final chapter of The Audacity of Hope are touching and honest. And when he finishes the book, like a young Rousseau, by saying that “my heart is filled with love for this country,” I don’t detect any cynicism. Yet Obama writes and speaks with an anthropologist’s eye, with the sense that he is not a participant in the world with which he so wants to commune. Experience is always had and held at a distance.

The passage in The Audacity of Hope that both focuses this sense of distance and complicates the problem I want to address is the death of his mother from cancer at the age of fifty-two, when Obama was thirty-four. He writes, for once, in a flare of directly felt intensity:

More than once I saw fear flash across her eyes. More than fear of pain or fear of the unknown, it was the sheer loneliness of death that frightened her, I think—the notion that on this final journey, on this last adventure, she would have no one to fully share her experiences with, no one who could marvel with her at the body’s capacity to inflict pain on itself, or laugh at the stark absurdity of life once one’s hair starts falling out and one’s salivary glands shut down.

His mother was an anthropologist. She died as an anthropologist, with a feeling of distance from others and an inability to commune with them and to communicate her pain. Perhaps this is the root of Obama’s horror vacui. But to understand this, we have to turn to his discussion of religion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do we need religion? Obama recognizes that people turn to religion because they want “a narrative arc to their lives, something that will relieve a chronic loneliness or lift them above the exhausting, relentless toil of daily life.” The alternative is clear: nihilism. The latter means “to travel down a long highway toward nothingness.” Religion satisfies the need for a fullness to experience, a transcendence that fills the void. Obama’s path to Christianity plays out against the background of his anthropologist mother’s respectful distance from religion.

Like many of us, Obama initially looks to what he calls “political philosophy” for help. He wants confirmation of the values he inherited from his mother (honesty, empathy, discipline, delayed gratification, and hard work) and a way to transform them into systems of action that “could help build community and make justice real.” Unsurprisingly, perhaps, also like many of us, he doesn’t find the answer in political philosophy but only by confronting a dilemma that his mother never resolved. He writes:

The Christians with whom I worked recognized themselves in me; they saw that I knew their Book and shared their values and sang their songs. But they sensed that part of me remained removed, detached, an observer among them. I came to realize that without a vessel for my beliefs, without an unequivocal commitment to a particular community of faith, I would be consigned at some level to remain apart, free in the way that my mother was free, but also alone in the same ways that she was ultimately alone.

Freedom, for Obama, is the negative freedom from commitment that left his mother feeling detached and alone, a solitude that culminated in her death. Such is the freedom of the void. Being anthropologically respectful of all faiths means being committed to none and being left to drift without an anchor for one’s most deeply held beliefs. To have such an anchor means being committed to a specific community. The only way Obama can overcome his sense of detachment and resolve his mother’s dilemma is through a commitment to Christianity. More specifically, it is only through a commitment to the historically black church that Obama can find that sense of grounding and fullness. It culminates in his joining Trinity United Church of Christ under Pastor Jeremiah Wright on Chicago’s South Side. Whatever one makes of it, the absolute centrality of black American Christianity in the arc of Obama’s narrative is what makes his fractious relationship with Pastor Wright so important and intriguing. Ultimately, everything turns here on the relation between the prophetic word (Wright’s “God damn America”) and the activity of government (“My heart is filled with love for this country”).

What is certain about Obama’s commitment to Christianity is that it is a choice, a clear-minded rational choice, and not a conversion experience based on any personal revelation. He insists that “religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking. . . . It came about as a choice and not an epiphany; the questions I had did not magically disappear.” Although he goes on to add that “I felt God’s spirit beckoning me,” it is the coolest, most detached experience of religious commitment, without any trace of epiphanic transport and rapture. I can’t help but feel that Obama’s faith craves an experience of communion that is contradicted by the detachment and distance he is seeking to overcome. For example, when he is unsure what to tell his daughter about the question of death, he says, “I wondered whether I should have told her the truth, that I wasn’t sure what happens when we die, any more than I was sure where the soul resides or what existed before the Big Bang.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Such skepticism about matters metaphysical is understandable enough and has a fine philosophical ancestry. But where does it leave us and where does it leave the question of belief, the cornerstone of Obama’s entire presidential campaign? We come back to where we started, with the common good. Obama wants to believe in the common good as a way of providing a fullness to experience that avoids the slide into nihilism. But sometimes I don’t know if he knows what belief is and what it would be to hold such a belief. It all seems so distant and opaque. The persistent presence of the mother’s dilemma—the sense of loneliness, doubt, and abandonment—seems palpable and ineliminable. We must believe, but we can’t believe. Perhaps this is the tragedy that some of us see in Obama: a change we can believe in and the crushing realization that nothing will change.
dobrosavljevic_m dobrosavljevic_m 13:31 06.11.2008

Republikanci

su mogli da vrsljaju koliko su hteli, a ostali bi na vlasti da nije pao standard stanovnistvu.
Meni je neverovatano da su izgubili ovako tesno.
lajko_trinidad lajko_trinidad 14:10 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

Meni je neverovatano da su izgubili ovako tesno.


Meni je još uvek neverovatno da su izabrali čoveka koji se zove Barak Husein Obama za predsednika.
DejanOz DejanOz 14:19 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

dobrosavljevic_m
su mogli da vrsljaju koliko su hteli, a ostali bi na vlasti da nije pao standard stanovnistvu.
Meni je neverovatano da su izgubili ovako tesno.

Ma da, samo ste propustili da primetite da su koreni hipotekarne krize u vremenu Bil Klintona. Pristrasnost americkih (svetske da ne pominjem) medija u korist Obame, kad pridodamo - zaista je neverovatno da su R izgubili tako tesno...
palilula92 palilula92 14:49 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

Republikanci #Link Replika: 2su mogli da vrsljaju koliko su hteli, a ostali bi na vlasti da nije pao standard stanovnistvu.
Meni je neverovatano da su izgubili ovako tesno.


Americka izborna kampanja se ne zasniva na vecini glasova, nego na borbi za electoral glasove. U vecini drzava nije ni bilo kampanje. Cilj nije bio da se po celoj zemlji pridobije sto vise ljudi, nego u odredenim drzavama. Rezultat izbora koji je bitan - electoral glasovi : 349 (Obama) i 163 (McCain) je vazan i cela kampanja je bila usmerena da se ovi glasovi dobiju. Ovo je katastrofalan rezultat za Republikance, i nikako nije tesna pobeda Demokrata.
dobrosavljevic_m dobrosavljevic_m 14:59 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

samo ste propustili da primetite da su koreni hipotekarne krize u vremenu Bil Klintona


Nisam neki pozavalac sto se toga tice,ali pretpostavljam da se ovakve katastofe ne desavaju preko noci.

Cini mi se i da su teme koje koje republikanci forsiraju (bezbednost, ceo taj patriotski paket ideja) mnogo
prijemcivije za narod, ali da nisu glasaci dobili po dzepu, ne bi se setili da se 'patriotizam ne sipa u traktor '
(doziveh da citiram Palmu...krajnje vreme doslo...)
dobrosavljevic_m dobrosavljevic_m 15:07 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

Americka izborna kampanja se ne zasniva na vecini glasova, nego na borbi za electoral glasove



Znam za to, dosta je emisija bilo u kojim je objasnjavan sistem glasanja.
Govorim o tome sta interesuje stanovnistvo.

Obama won the popular vote by a fairly narrow margin, about 52 percent of the vote. That means that almost as many people voted against him as voted for him.
palilula92 palilula92 15:39 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

Republikanci imaju svoje verne glasace kojima su zabrana abortusa, pravo da se naoruzaju do zuba i religija, najbitnije stvari u zivotu. Po nekim procenama, ovi ljudi cine 50% njihovih glasova. Ti ljudi ne razmisljaju mnogo o ekonomiji i spoljnoj politici. Vrlo je sokantno cuti njihove argumente (ili odsustvo argumenata). Ta zatucana Amerika je glavna baza Republikanaca. Sta god da im Demokrate ponude, nije bitno, vazno je sta misle o zabrani abortusa. Zato su podrzavali Saru Palin, njena izjava da su ljudi i dinosaurusi ziveli zajedno pre 6000 godina, je za njih pun pogodak. Kad smo kod nje, evo jos bisera:






Najnoviji rezultat glasanja je Obama 53%, McCain 46%.
dusanj92 dusanj92 18:59 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

That means that almost as many people voted against him as voted for him.

Pa svaki put kad su izbori slican je procenat. Nikada nije jedan kandidat pobedio sa 75% glasova. Uvek je samo par procenata vise. To samo pokazuje da je "volja vecine naroda" relativan pojam jer u 52% se broje samo oni koji su glasali a ne celokupno stanovnistvo.

Na ovim izborima se glasalo protiv Busha. Na prethodnim za Busha ... i 2000 za Busha a 1988 i 1992 za Bushovog tatu. Dokle vise ............ Imali jos neki Bush.
Cyrano de Bergerac Cyrano de Bergerac 21:06 06.11.2008

Re: Republikanci

dusanj92

Na ovim izborima se glasalo protiv Busha. Na prethodnim za Busha ... i 2000 za Busha a 1988 i 1992 za Bushovog tatu. Dokle vise ............ Imali jos neki Bush.

Ima, mlađi brat, onaj sa Floride. Mada ne vjerujem da poslije W ima neke šanse.
lajko_trinidad lajko_trinidad 14:07 06.11.2008

komentar

Sledece sto treba ocekivati,sudeci po filmovima snimanim u poslednjih 10-15-ak godina,a gde je,skoro po pravilu,predsednik USA crnac,je pojava VANZEMALJACA(cesto se pojavljivali sa "crnim predsednikom"!Vecini ce zvucati vrlo glupavo,ali je,ustvari,vrlo zanimljivo da se 90% tematike tih filmova ostvari u nekom,buducem periodu...
(Najozbiljniji, 5. novembar 2008 15:44)
lajko_trinidad lajko_trinidad 14:40 06.11.2008

hm

Odslušao sam ceo pobednički govor Obame:
bla, truć, demagogija, Amerika zemlja nade i mogućnosti, svi ljudi su braća itd.
Ne razumem čemu toliko oduševljenje? Morgan Frimen je bio daleko inspirativniji u "Deep impact" ili kakosevećzvaše onaj film.
dali76 dali76 15:31 06.11.2008

what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Imao bih pitanje za autorku bloga kao I za sve goste komentatore ovdje:
Po cemu se razlikuje ponudjeni recept doticnog poznatog NY novinara I kolumniste Mr. Fridmana od recepta kojeg je zadnjih osam godina tako revnosno sprovodila Busova administracija?

Ja znam I svjestan sam da je vanjska politika SADono sto se najmanje mijenja kad se promjeni vlast u “bijeloj kuci” ted a su u vanjskoj politici samo oscilacije vidljive dok je glavni pravac vanjske politike gotovo isti, ali ja ovdje ne vidim niti oscilacije!!
Ne zaboravimo da sem unutrasnje poolitike Obama jeste pobjedio ove izbore na krilima “gneva” americkog stanovnistva bas u odnosu na tu vanjsku politiku.
Samo jedna kontradikcija gospodina Fridmana:
Mi treba da trazimo tj da se oslonimo na ase evropske saveznike sto se Rusije tice a s druge strane trebamo pomoc od tih istih saveznikasto se tice rata u Afganistanu!!
Sto drugo reci nego onu od Borata: very nice …how much “?!!
S druge strane Fridman priznaje da Njemacka ne zeli u sukob s Rusima zbog gasa I sto je jos zanimljivije nece nove hladnoratovske odnose. Gospodin Fridman ih hoce? Tj trebali bi slusati njega?
d_sandic d_sandic 15:34 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

I ja imam pitanje za sve:

Amerika je dobila 44. predsednika. Čovek je , za razliku od svih predhodnika, tamne boje kože. So what?
antioksidant antioksidant 15:45 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Amerika je dobila 44. predsednika. Čovek je , za razliku od svih predhodnika, tamne boje kože. So what?

evo da probam ja.

pre nekoliko decenija ljudi tamnije boje koze nisu mogli ni u restoran sa ljudima belje koze.

njima je trebalo samo nekoliko decenija da se toliko promene da coveku tamnije boje koze povere drzavu u ruke.

a zasto je to bitno? pa meni jer ne znam da li bi srbiji bilo dovoljno 40 godina da prihvati roma na celu drzave? mozda bi, mozda ne bi. ovo sto se desilo u americi daje nadu da jedno drustvo moze drasticno da se promeni ka bolje u samo 2 generacije.
d_sandic d_sandic 15:49 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

a zasto je to bitno? pa meni jer ne znam da li bi srbiji bilo dovoljno 40 godina da prihvati roma na celu drzave? mozda bi, mozda ne bi. ovo sto se desilo u americi daje nadu da jedno drustvo moze drasticno da se promeni ka bolje u samo 2 generacije.


Dakle suština promene je, po vama, da Srbija dobije Roma na čelu države. A to što je godinama imala Crnogorce nema veze. Srbija je tolerantna samo ako Rom bude predsednik. Zanimljivo stanovište.
palilula92 palilula92 16:02 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Dakle suština promene je, po vama, da Srbija dobije Roma na čelu države. A to što je godinama imala Crnogorce nema veze. Srbija je tolerantna samo ako Rom bude predsednik. Zanimljivo stanovište.



Ovo nije adekvatno poredenje. Mislim da je Antioksidant hteo da objasni znacaj Obaminog izbora, mada kod nas nema bas adekvatnog poredenja. Mozda bi bolji primer bio da Srbija izabere muslimana za precednika, ali ni to nije bas adekvatno. Mi nismo imali robove kojima smo zakonom ogranicavali osnovne slobode i fizicki ih odvajali zbog boje koze.
d_sandic d_sandic 16:06 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

palilula92
Dakle suština promene je, po vama, da Srbija dobije Roma na čelu države. A to što je godinama imala Crnogorce nema veze. Srbija je tolerantna samo ako Rom bude predsednik. Zanimljivo stanovište.Ovo nije adekvatno poredenje. Mislim da je Antioksidant hteo da objasni znacaj Obaminog izbora, mada kod nas nema bas adekvatnog poredenja. Mozda bi bolji primer bio da Srbija izabere muslimana za precednika, ali ni to nije bas adekvatno. Mi nismo imali robove kojima smo zakonom ogranicavali osnovne slobode i fizicki ih odvajali zbog boje koze.


Pa ljudi Mađar je predsednik Francuske. Svet se menja. Moj podtekst je da je vaša argumentacija 'bravo,crnac predsednik USA' isto tako rasistička. Boli me bre uvo za boju kože, bitno mi je ko će da ga okružuje i kako će da ga savetuje. Tu imam nekih rezervi.
dali76 dali76 16:17 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Ja odista ne razumijem vas cinizam.
Kako mislite to “so what”
Pa sto godina je trebalo od kraja civilnog rata od deklartivnog prava crnaca da glasaju (amandman 13) da crnci dobiju pravo glasa!!!
Da ste pitali bilo koga u Americi ovog proljeca da li moze predsjednik postati covijek koji je tamne koze I koji se zove Barack Husein Obama pa ljudi bi vam se smijali.
I kakva je to uporedba Crnogoraca I crnaca?
Vi ste u jednom svom komentaru stavili da ne zelite za vasu djecu da nikad ne idu u rat vec da uce.
Stavio sam vam preporuku kao kucu das am mogao jos pet stavio bih jos pet.
Zar mislite da ovdje roditelji drugacije misle?
Stvarno vas ne razumijem.
Jedno je biti ogorcen, drugo je argumente koristiti bez emocija.
I jai h imam gospodine Sandicu; za cijeli svoj zivot sam ostao invalid radi ratnih igara nasih I inih “poglavica” ali kad raspravljam o necemu pokusavam emociju strpati u stranu I misliti hladne glave….

antioksidant antioksidant 16:20 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Pa ljudi Mađar je predsednik Francuske. Svet se menja.

pa to ti kazem. meni je to krajnje ok.

pre 2 generacije to je nemoguce. sad je obama predsednik usa.

i da - naravno da je vazno sta ce i kako raditi i ko ce ga savetovati. ali meni je lepo sto je jedno drustvo u stanju da se toliko promeni za tako kratko vreme.

a rom bi u srbiji imao vise poteskoca da postane predsednik zbog nemogucnosti da dobije kvalitetno obrazovanje nego zbog boje koze. to je tema na kojoj mi kao drustvo trebamo raditi sledece 2 generacije. ako za 2 generacije toliko promenimo svoje drustvo ja cu biti jaaako srecan (a narocito ako pozivim toliko)

palilula92 palilula92 16:22 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Pa ljudi Mađar je predsednik Francuske. Svet se menja. Moj podtekst je da je vaša argumentacija 'bravo,crnac predsednik USA' isto tako rasistička. Boli me bre uvo za boju kože, bitno mi je ko će da ga okružuje i kako će da ga savetuje. Tu imam nekih rezervi


Problem je to sto ti ne shvatas koliko je Amerika konzervativna.
d_sandic d_sandic 16:33 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Ja odista ne razumijem vas cinizam.
Kako mislite to “so what”
Pa sto godina je trebalo od kraja civilnog rata od deklartivnog prava crnaca da glasaju (amandman 13) da crnci dobiju pravo glasa!!!
Da ste pitali bilo koga u Americi ovog proljeca da li moze predsjednik postati covijek koji je tamne koze I koji se zove Barack Husein Obama pa ljudi bi vam se smijali.
I kakva je to uporedba Crnogoraca I crnaca?
Vi ste u jednom svom komentaru stavili da ne zelite za vasu djecu da nikad ne idu u rat vec da uce.
Stavio sam vam preporuku kao kucu das am mogao jos pet stavio bih jos pet.
Zar mislite da ovdje roditelji drugacije misle?
Stvarno vas ne razumijem.
Jedno je biti ogorcen, drugo je argumente koristiti bez emocija.
I jai h imam gospodine Sandicu; za cijeli svoj zivot sam ostao invalid radi ratnih igara nasih I inih “poglavica” ali kad raspravljam o necemu pokusavam emociju strpati u stranu I misliti hladne glave


Gospodine,

bojim se da se nismo najbolje razumeli. Meni je uvredljiv stav većine komentatora 'vau, afroamerikanac postao...'. Verovatno na to gledam tako jer nikad nisam bio rasista. Ponavljam , da sam ja Srbin iz Bosne i državljanin Srbije izašao na izbore, izneo svoju viziju i pobedio pa da čitam komentare tipa ' bosanski Srbin pobedio....'. E, to bi me uvredilo. Barak Obama, kandidat Demokrata postao 44. predsednik USA. To je ono što ja smatram korektnim izveštavanjem. Smatram da je bio bolji kandidat. Plašim se refleksija na Srbiju zbog njegovih budućih saradnika. Administracija je ta koja, ako ne vodi, ono sugeriše politiku. Zbog toga, i samo zbog toga nisam euforičan ( jer moja deca i ja ipak ne živimo u Americi). Nema skrivenog rasizma, nema predrasuda. Da budem još određeniji: rađe bi da je podpredsednik gospodin C. Powell.
vladimir petrovic vladimir petrovic 22:11 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

D. Sandic
...Dakle suština promene je, po vama, da Srbija dobije Roma na čelu države. A to što je godinama imala Crnogorce nema veze. Srbija je tolerantna samo ako Rom bude predsednik. Zanimljivo stanovište.


Ma salio se Antioksidant.
On je zaboravio da smo mi imali Siptara za sefa drzave, cini mi se da se zvao Sinan Hasani, u ono vreme kada je, posle Tita, postojalo tzv. Predsednistvo, pa su se rotirali... I nikome nije smetalo sto je Sinan Hasani bio sef drzave, pa nikome ne bi smetalo ni, recimo, Rajko Djuric da jednog dana bude sef drzave, why not?
ivana23 ivana23 22:21 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

vladimir petrovic
Ma salio se Antioksidant.On je zaboravio da smo mi imali Siptara za sefa drzave, cini mi se da se zvao Sinan Hasani, u ono vreme kada je, posle Tita, postojalo tzv. Predsednistvo, pa su se rotirali... I nikome nije smetalo sto je Sinan Hasani bio sef drzave, pa nikome ne bi smetalo ni, recimo, Rajko Djuric da jednog dana bude sef drzave, why not?


Fadilj Hodza!
Doctor Wu Doctor Wu 23:17 06.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Fadilj Hodza!

Mislim da Fadilj nikad nije bio prezident.
A Sinan jeste. I to, koliko se sećam, baš negde u vreme slučaja Martinović.
ivana23 ivana23 00:07 07.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Doctor Wu
Fadilj Hodza!Mislim da Fadilj nikad nije bio prezident. A Sinan jeste. I to, koliko se sećam, baš negde u vreme slučaja Martinović.

Jeste, S.H. zaista. Ne znam kako mi je F.H. ostao u secanju kao clan pred. SFRJ.
Sorry.
Doctor Wu Doctor Wu 00:22 07.11.2008

Re: what's up mr. freedman ?!!

Ne znam kako mi je F.H. ostao u secanju kao clan pred. SFRJ.

Pa Hoxha jeste bio član Predsedništva (i to baš onog kad je Tito umro), ali nije bio njegov Predsednik (valjda je njegov red prošao dok je Tito još uvek bio živ). Ne sećam se tačno, ali čini mi se da je iskazivao razumevanje za neke od zahteva demonstrante 1981. pa je bio kao u nekoj blagoj nemilosti.
ivana23 ivana23 00:36 07.11.2008

Bio, bice...

Da, bice da je tako, sto se tice F.H.

Nego, ne primecujem da se neko osvrnuo na ovu vest:

РАМ ЕМАНУЕЛ ПРИХВАТИО МЕСТО ШЕФА ОБАМИНОГ КАБИНЕТА

ВАШИНГТОН – Конгресмен из Илиноиса Рам Емануел прихватио је да буде шеф кабинета новог председника САД Барака Обаме у Белој кући, јављају агенције.
Реч је о првом званичном именовању у новој администрацији, два дана након избора Барака Обаме за 44. председника САД.
Рам Емануел је већ радио у Белој кући, као политички саветник некадашњег председника САД Била Клинтона. Место шефа кабинета у Белој кући сматра се једним од најважнијих места у америчкој администрацији.
Емануел је мало оклевао да прихвати ту функцију.
„Када сам био у Белој кући, нисам имао децу. Сада ми је позната Бела кућа и имам децу. Имам породицу”, изјавио је Емануел телевизији МСНБЦ.
Нови шеф Обаминог кабинета познат је као један од демократа који је најприврженији партији, и као један од најжешћих противника републиканаца.
Емануел је такође члан Српског кокуса у америчком Конгресу од његовог оснивања 2004.
Циљ тог кокуса јесте да допринесе бољем разумевању прилика у Србији и унапређењу односа и историјских веза Србије и САД, а Емануел је заједно са републиканцем Деном Бартоном изабран за копредседавајућег.
Рам Емануел био је и предлагач или коиницијатор више резолуција везаних за Србију, као што су резолуција којом се одаје почаст убијеном српском премијеру Зорану Ђинђићу или резолуција којом се осуђује етничко насиље на Косову.


Бета

Jasno mi je da on nece promeniti politiku SAD prema Srbiji, ali covek koji iole poznaje situaciju ovde moze biti
koristan po nas u nekim prilikama. Bar kao tumac odredjenih desavanja.
Doctor Wu Doctor Wu 00:54 07.11.2008

Re: Bio, bice...

Ma samo da onog Holbrookea ne gledamo. Juče je bio na Newsnightu kod Jeremy Paxmana (sav uprepodobljen, kao devojčica, ni traga onog arogantnog Holbrookea koji je "marširao" po Srbijanci 90-tih) i već najavio "major crisis within next 6 months, to test our resolution". Čovek je đavo, personifikacija zla.
adam weisphaut adam weisphaut 07:29 07.11.2008

^

On je zaboravio da smo mi imali Siptara za sefa drzave

PC do yaya.
djole63 djole63 15:49 06.11.2008

Back to the 90's

Izbor "drzavnog sekretara", ovaj clanak, i jos ponesto me nateralo da se javim.
Nisam procitao ceo tekst, ali vec je ovo upalo u oko:
To deliver on the third, he must deal with the Europeans.

Secam se kako je Stajnmajer odgovorio preplasenim ministrima bivsih sovjetskih republika, kad su nakom blic-krig-a u Gruziji zahtelvali sankcije protiv Rusije.
Mislim da ce Obama dobiti slican odgovor.

U sustini, to verovatno nije ni Obama, to je Bajden koji je zajedno sa tim "neoliberalnim jezgrom" izuzetno gadljiv na rusko pokazivanje pisica (naravno ne i na svoje). Klark, Olbrajt (setimo se izjave kako bi Sibir rreblo da se proda Americi), Holbruk, ... Brrrrrr ... Budi mi ruzne uspomene. A Vama Jelena?
Jelena Milić Jelena Milić 15:53 06.11.2008

za moderatore

nisam danas u stanju da brinem o postu, pobrisala sam neki komentar gologotoka molim ako ga ponoovo vidite i ako ponovo bude imao rasisticke postove da intervenisete.

hvala unapred




d_sandic d_sandic 16:02 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

Za mene su veći rasisti svi oni koji likuju što je afroamerikanac dobio izbore. Da sam afroamerikanac to bi me uvredilo. Mada, vaš komentar je mogao biti malo umereniji.

Pozdrav
antioksidant antioksidant 16:15 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

Za mene su veći rasisti svi oni koji likuju što je afroamerikanac dobio izbore. Da sam afroamerikanac to bi me uvredilo

a sta cemo sa cinjenicom da i afroamerikanci likuju?
palilula92 palilula92 16:18 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

Za mene su veći rasisti svi oni koji likuju što je afroamerikanac dobio izbore. Da sam afroamerikanac to bi me uvredilo. Mada, vaš komentar je mogao biti malo umereniji.





Afroamerikanci ne pokusavaju da negiraju rasizam, oni su svesni svoje proslosti i sadasnjosti. Obama nije pobedio zbog boje koze, nego zbog svojih mentalnih kvaliteta. To sto je Amerika glasala za polu-crnca je znak da se rasizmu blizi kraj. Svakom normalnom coveku bi ova cinjenica bila znacajna.

Kad su objavili Obaminu pobedu, ljudi su spontano izasli na ulice i slavili po celoj Americi. Videti odralse ljude, kako placu je bilo izuzetno dirljivo.
d_sandic d_sandic 16:20 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

a sta cemo sa cinjenicom da i afroamerikanci likuju?


Oni likuju zbog pobede svog kandidata. Ja to gledam ovako:

Izašao čovek kao kandidat na izbore, izneo svoju viziju i pobedio. A onda se pojave slavljenici i kažu 'Desilo se čudo. Crnac postao predsednik'. Takav način 'slavlja' povlači niz pitanja. Dominantno je: kako takvi slavljenici doživljavaju crnce, afroamerikance svejedno (ako je belac belac, ne vidim zašto crnac ne bi bio crnac?).
antioksidant antioksidant 16:23 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

Videti odralse ljude, kako placu je bilo izuzetno dirljivo.

antioksidant antioksidant 16:27 06.11.2008

Re: za moderatore

Izašao čovek kao kandidat na izbore, izneo svoju viziju i pobedio

pre 45 godina jedan drugi crnac je imao jako lepu viziju.

on nije imao sansi da se kandiduje zato sto je bio pogresne boje koze.

sada smo u situaciji kad polivini glasackog tela u sad (bar polovini) nije bitna boja koze kandidata. vis kako je lepo kada se san ostvari.

Arhiva

   

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