All over for Kostunica (bar the wailing)

Hugh Griffiths RSS / 17.02.2008. u 21:45

As the great unwashed move to round II in front of the US embassy, the good news is that it appears as if law enforcement are indeed being diligent. The bad news is for Kostunica.

For the first part, shouting offensive remarks about Albanians while crying "Kosovo is Serbia" in one breath, and support for mass murderer Ratko Mladic in the next is a general blow to  the "international law" themed PR that's been doing the DSS rounds.  Burning cars, attacking police, smashing traffic signs and punching journalists while waving the Serbian flag does no favours to what some refer to as the "branding" process and others call "national pride".

And while rioting outside US embassies has proved a popular past time in many countries, the fact that  Vojo K. specifically targeted the US in his earlier whine on national TV will not be lost on the Americans.

Not that inciting riots at the US embassy is all that, as they might say in Baltimore, no, what really signals Vojo's imminent departure, bar some more wailing, is what the ne'er do-well flag wavers were chanting.

"Save Serbia and kill yourself, Kostunica"

As reported by B92, before the great unwashed turned on the assembled journalists.

Why this should worry the current leader of the party of international law, is that despite pandering to the views of ignorant extremists, Kostunica has lost their support. And by betraying the DS over not endorsing Tadic for president, Kostunica has finally irrevocably alienated the more decent with whom he was in coalition with. Such symptoms of aforesaid alienation could be heard in the chanting at the street rally celebrating Tadic's re-election a couple of weeks earlier which went something like this:

"Save Serbia and kill yourself, Kostunica"

So things don't look good for Vojo right now, having not only pissed off the DS, but the radical base and the Americans as well. Having made his premiership about hanging onto both Kosovo and Montenegro, and failing to do either; making enemies out of all these king-makers means that he will be removed in the not too distant.  Unlike Djindjic, this will be a democratic process, but  history will be none too kind.

 

 


 



Komentari (75)

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Vasa S Tajcic Vasa S Tajcic 22:05 17.02.2008

Interesting take

Interesting take on the situation even though I believe that this is much bigger than Kostunica or his political future. Anyway, maybe shouting the names of war criminals will change Serbia’s fortunes. It seems to work for Kosovo Albanians. They are lead by known war criminals and drug dealers and yet they are loved by US and UK politicians. Maybe because they are of the same sort, or maybe UK and US politicians do not understand who they are. One thing is certain, Kosovo is not a democratic society and its economy is based on drug smuggling and white slavery. That is what is so sad about today’s celebration or demolition.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 22:33 17.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

You seem to have some reservations about Thaci et al. But before Thaci there was Rugova. His inability to move Milosevic et al led to the rise, and subsequent support for the KLA. Milosevic's policies in Kosovo led to the rise of the KLA. And that's his legacy damaging your city tonight.
Vasa S Tajcic Vasa S Tajcic 22:53 17.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

I don't have any reservation about Taci. I am saying that he is a war criminal. With respect to Rugova, I agree. He was a moderate who was fighting for the rights of Kosovo Albanians. I believe that his fight was justified. Milosevic is responsible for the rise of KLA because he used unnecessary force to stop several bandits from killing civilians. If he wanted to get rid of them he could’ve done that much smarter.
I know that this is Milosevic’s legacy, but he was not alone. He had a lot of help from the west.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 23:20 17.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

To be sure, people like Tudjman, Karadzic, Boban and Milosevic got alot of support from politicians acting for governments in western Europe and North America where, one would hope, democratic decency might prevail. Sadly this was not the case and there is much to be ashamed about.




Vasa S Tajcic Vasa S Tajcic 00:25 18.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

I agree. There is plenty of blame to go around.
codex_casti codex_casti 00:57 18.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

you got it all wrong hugh.. it was never important who ruled serbia in late '90.. it is just well know american tactics to attack country and stay there forever.. like in germany, japan, korea, iraq..
mikimedic mikimedic 15:13 20.02.2008

Re: Interesting take

Milosevic's policies in Kosovo led to the rise of the KLA


Interesting, very interesting.... Hugh, give me an honest answer. Whose polices in Kosovo lead to the rise of Milosevic? (1950-1990).
badreligion badreligion 22:14 17.02.2008

therapy?

Dunno if you've been here during the '99 Merciful Angel. Your assumptions coincide with the official US ones back then, regarding Milosevic. I think you're wrong, simply because Kostunica has said (quite bluntly) what most of Serbia feels. We're sick and tired of being pushed around by US in particular, and whereas during the bombing there was some vague pretext (again unlawful), this time there's nothing to justify the plain bullying of a sovereign country.
There is one much more important difference, however - Russia is no longer run by a pissed beggar. There's more than one king-maker now.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 22:42 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

If you go by opinion polls, or indeed the last elections, Kostunica appears pretty unpopular.

As for bullying, while nobody likes being told what to do, the fact of the matter remains that the only way to maintain control of Kosovo was by force. This was bullying, something similar to the bullying that went on in Bosnia. Having been eye witness to both, trust me when I say that the version you are enduring is virtual by comparison.
Sepulturero Sepulturero 22:55 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

US gouvernment should be happy with Kostunica because since 5 oct 2000 he has faithfully playing a Troyan horse i.e. deflecting voters from Serb radical party.
If it was not for him and his phony DSS radicals would be in power a long time ago.
Actually, like in 2000, US is probably helping him even now behind the scene.
badreligion badreligion 23:06 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

This is not just "doing what you're told to", this is a blatant breach of international law. I don't think much of Kostunica, but the fact is that the law is on his side this time, and if we start breaking it now, we'll find ourselves back in the stone age at some point.

Even if we agree that there was a genocide in Kosovo during the 90's, and that Kosovo has the moral right to declare independance, the fact remains that it is against the law. Fifty years from now, with new politicians in place, nobody will remember why was the independence granted, they'll know only that a precedent was made and the law was broken. Other cases will follow in the same pattern, and I bet you US and EU will be the ones to suffer the most.
Dawngreeter Dawngreeter 23:22 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

One of the more peculiar things about this shrinking country of Serbia is the honest concern for the well-being of the entire world that most of the inhabitants exhibit with alarming frequency. A normal person might think that with everything on our collective plate at this point in time, people would be concerned primarily for them selves. But that's why Serbia is not just another country but a heavenly nation closest and dearest to the heart of god (who we happen to know is a god of justice; says so in the damn hymn). Even when in midst of such dire circumstances, the Serbians are concerned only for how this will affect the rest of the world. We care not for our own well-being, it's the entire rest of the world that might suffer more than we and it is our duty to share our concerns.

Obraz, Dveri, Nomokanon and other far right religious nationalist health food organizations (we just might be the only country in the world which successfully combined protests against imperialism and unhealthy McDonald's food) are expected to send their aid packages to countries most threatened - Spain, UK and Cyprus are to be included in the first batch, but the US might be covered in the second batch because of the rising concern of California declaring independence from the rest of the union and joining hands with Mexico. Most of the blame for California joining the union in the first place is placed on terrorist known only as Zorro and organized burning of his pictures on public squares is underway.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 23:36 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

I see where you are coming from, but I am not so sure that this is the first time such an event has occured - if you look back to East Pakistan/Bangladesh story, perhaps you migh find some parallels there.

Lawyers could and would argue this point (especially if they were paid to) but, I think there is a more serious problem here and that is for any country which occupies territory a part of which the overwhelming majority of the population has no desire to belong.

How can such a state remain democratic? Even in places where a large minority was in favour of independence, the instruments of state became corrupted through extra-judicial practices that resulted in hit squads and assassination, paramilitary collusion and the suspension of civil rights (I am thinking of Northern Ireland here.)

I think democracy is the most important thing, international law is by its nature is subject to evolution and its most important tenets (such as the Convention Against Genocide) have been flouted to such an extent that the world order outside the EU remains governed by a "law of the jungle". This played to Slobo's advantage. It does not play to Vojo's.

Furthermore, Vojo has not observed the international legal obligations with respect to the Hague tribunal imposed on states via security council resolutions. Vojo has not delivered Mladic to the Hague, although Rasim Ljajic has admitted that Ratko was in-country as late as 2005. There's international law governing handing over ICTY suspects which means that adherence to international law gets selective treatment. Not just in Serbia, of course.
badreligion badreligion 23:51 17.02.2008

Hugh Griffiths

We can debate this all night long and it still won't change the fact that the independence of Kosovo is unlawful. For all the hipocrisy of Kostunica (a hipocritical politician?!) there can be no justification for breaking the law. I will not be dragged into a discussion whether the world is fair, should the law be changed and whether Kostunica is honest or not (well, that's an easy one).
Bottom line is - law is equal to all, and it should be obeyed.
badreligion badreligion 23:52 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

Dawngreeter, in spite of all your cinicism, you've said nothing.
Dawngreeter Dawngreeter 23:55 17.02.2008

Re: therapy?

Sarcasm, my dear Watson. The word you're looking for is sarcasm.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 00:33 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Well, I guess we will have to agree that we disagree then. Far better that than violence on the streets.
badreligion badreligion 00:42 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

That's one thing we certainly agree on.
codex_casti codex_casti 14:13 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

well.. someone is taking part of your land and you should smile about it??? is that what you would do mr. griffits?
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 14:23 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

I am a UK citizen, and if the Catholics of Northern Ireland become a majority in my lifetime, a referendum is held and the majority votes for independence from the UK, neither I nor 90% of the UK population will have problem with it. And yes, I would smile and wish them good luck.

Nobody is "taking" Kosovo, the inhabitants have decided what they want and people living elsewhere should get over it and focus on their own problems
codex_casti codex_casti 14:50 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

They didn’t take it from us? How do you call three months of NATO bombing in 1999?? Friendly persuadation?!?
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 15:06 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

The bombing was to get the MUP, army and paramilitaries out of Kosovo. Unfortunately the lesson of Bosnia had been learnt which was that Milosevic only backed down when his violence was met by violence. And even more unfortunately, ordinary, innocent people suffered as a result of that, as they had done since Slobo and slime came to power.
codex_casti codex_casti 17:39 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

west is to blame for bosnia. americans the most, to be more specific. all western diplomats in past couple of years or more said it was bad deccision to recognize bosnia in 1992 without agreement between three nations who lived there. second thing considering your previous mentioning of northern ireland. when catholics in first decade of 20th century, try to use force to rejoin with republic of ireland, british crown sent army to deal with it. and british army is still in northern ireland, 100 years after that.. when we sent our army to deal with same problem in kosovo, NATO send their forces to stop it. I call it double standards. and there are a dozen of provinces in europe where national minority are majority. that doesnt mean that they can declare independance based on fact of bigger number. that has nothing to do with international law.
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 17:59 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Dear codex...

Kosovo's independence doesn't really come out of the blue as it seems from your post. If Serbia would have had the decency to recognise the bare existence of Albanians in the south, you might have had at least some claim to it. Kosovans have been trampled upon since the end of the WWII (to say the least), denied their right to use their language, have a say in any kind of government, etc. Their struggle started a long time ago, and you guys had 9 years to prepare for what came on Feb. 17th.

And by the way, when was it last time any of you went to Kosovo? And when was it last time you really cared for the well-being of Kosovo Serbs? Or Bosnian Serbs, for that matter? From what I experienced, Bosnian Serbs are "pigs" for you and Kosovo Serbs are "gypsies"...

I don't know why you're complaining... it's not like you would have been ready to give 20% of power-sharing to Albanians if they decided to, by some kind of a wonder, stay a part of Serbia.

Cheers!
Godzila Godzila 19:40 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Stupidity. Once the slavery was legal. Was it ethical too? We mistreated Siptari, we shove all of them, women and children over the border. How on earth do you expect obey our goverment now when we didn't change at all.
badreligion badreligion 19:59 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

I really wanted to stay out of this argument, but I couldn't help it after reading your post, Aida.

Don't know what you've experienced, but you're the only person I've ever heard calling those people pigs and gippos. It's just plain malicious, as is the rest of your post. The "20% of power" argument fails in face of the complete autonomy that Serbia has offered. It's a lie that they didn't have the right to use their own language, cos both nations living there are bilingual, and so are the schools and university. Not even Albanians were complaining about that! As for recognition of their existance - well, a good start would be not refusing to participate in census polls. Even today, nobody actually knows how many Albanians there are in Kosovo. 20yrs ago there were just bellow 2mil people living there, whereas now CNN claims that there are 3mil Albanians there.

For once, Serbia holds the moral ground firmly, and all the false arguments and recent history lessons won't make this "independance" legal.
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 20:44 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

badreligion,

Please reread my post a few times to understand the sentence I wrote about pigs and gypsies.

The bilingualism you are mentioning surely existed, if you consider the fact that Albanians had to know Serbian, but Serbs didn't necessarily need to know Albanian... you'll find this supported by the fact that almost every Albanian speaks Serbian, and very few Serbs speak Albanian.


As for recognition of their existance - well, a good start would be not refusing to participate in census polls.


You mean like Serbs nowadays refuse to participate in any kind of elections, etc. in Kosovo... Serbia should and could have done better in attracting Albanians to participate... Kosovans now have to try and do a better job regarding the same thing with Serbs in Kosovo.

UN estimates that about 2 mil. people live in Kosovo, 90% Albanians, roughly 5% Serbs and 5% "Others"...

And finally, I totally disagree with you that Serbia holds the moral ground... I don't see any basis for that whatsoever...


Hugh, I got into the trap.... shit!
badreligion badreligion 21:50 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Your sentence regarding the pigs and gypsies is nothing but a personal, biased opinion, with which no Serbian would agree. I wonder what kind of experience would make you think of something like that. Still, believe what you want, that's your right.
However, your right is not to change the facts, and the facts are: Albanians were not banned from studying in their native language; Serbia has offered Kosovo everything short of a seat in UN - which is not going to happen anyway, even now; and most importantly THE SECESSION IS ILLEGAL.

That's what gives Serbia the moral ground. What has happened is nothing short of a robbery at a gunpoint.
Sofroniye Sofroniye 21:55 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh Griffiths

Well, I guess we will have to agree that we disagree then. Far better that than violence on the streets.


If you don't mind me asking what are your qualifications with respect to the international law? Any formal education or something ? I see many legal minds from all over the world claiming that the independence of Kosovo is not legal while you think there is something to argue about. Of course that doesn't surprise me because in the western civilizations anything can be debated. However, let us debate about this...

Resolution 1244, Annex 1, ...

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for a substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of the KLA;


Sofroniye Sofroniye 21:56 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh Griffiths

The bombing was to get the MUP, army and paramilitaries out of Kosovo. Unfortunately the lesson of Bosnia had been learnt which was that Milosevic only backed down when his violence was met by violence. And even more unfortunately, ordinary, innocent people suffered as a result of that, as they had done since Slobo and slime came to power.


I suggest you read Mr. Clinton's memoirs and pay particular attention to a paragraph in which he explains why Serbia was bombed. He has a little bit different opinion but I guess you know better than him...
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 22:26 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.
codex_casti codex_casti 22:38 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

dear aida,
your remarks are silly. was i ever in kosovo or what names I call my compatriots from kosovo or bosnia has nothing to do with international law and order. so i repeat it just one more time for the sake of mr. griffiths and yours if you want: " there are a dozen of provinces in europe where national minority are majority. that doesnt mean that they can declare independance based on fact of bigger number. that has nothing to do with international law....
badreligion badreligion 22:39 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh Griffiths
ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.


It's sad that you have to resort to that old excuse for the lack of argument. God forbid you might be the subject to a different kind of propaganda... Pathetic.
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 22:43 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

br,

Not my
personal, biased opinion, with which no Serbian would agree
, but rather something I heard from quite a few Serbs in Belgrade (when they were speaking unofficially). Anyway, as I am a reasonable person, I will give in and say that, of course, those people don't represent every single Serb in Serbia. (btw. Slobodan Milosevic called Bosnian Serbs "pigs"... re-check that)


However, your right is not to change the facts, and the facts are: Albanians were not banned from studying in their native language; Serbia has offered Kosovo everything short of a seat in UN - which is not going to happen anyway, even now;
Check your facts please. Serbia obviously hasn't offered Albanians the right to self-determination, because they would have used that one a long time ago.

and most importantly THE SECESSION IS ILLEGAL.
I studied English literature, not international law, so my argumentation for the legality or illegality of independence would probably be pointless.

What has happened is nothing short of a robbery at a gunpoint.
Again, Serbs had nine (9) years to say farewell to Kosovo. The independence certainly didn't come as a surprise, and even more certainly not at a gunpoint. Why would you have problems with having to carry a passport in order to be able to see Serbian monasteries in Kosovo? Most religious people need visas to go to Jerusalem to see the Church of the Holy Sepulcher or to Bethlehem to see the Nativity Church, and they don't have a problem with that... (Am I seriously pushing the sensitive button here?).


codex_casti codex_casti 22:51 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

QUOTE: ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.

you can't be serious mr. griffiths??!!!!
badreligion badreligion 23:19 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Yeah, whatever... I'm tired of trying to explain the obvious.
Either I'm mad or the world's gone crazy. Gloat, you won, f***ing hurrah, another beggar on the world's stage, just do let me know what you think when your countries (whatever they may be) start sending your boys all over the world to try and quell some obscure rebellions (righteous or not) that Kosovo will inspire for sure.

I give up. If you're really a Palestinian, you should, as well. After all, you had many more years to say farewell...
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 23:38 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

br,

What is obvious to you, does not necessarily represent reality or truth that you consider to be untrue.

And it's definitely not about winning or gloating... I thought blogging is generally useful for exchange of opinions that don't necessarily always have to agree with each other. I respect your opinion because I see where it comes from, I just don't agree with it. Additionally, maybe a few years of actually living in Kosovo (which I consider my advantage over you) give me a better understanding of Albanian reasoning behind their desire for independence.

I am not Palestinian (and let's not start on Palestine, it's a totally different shoe than Kosovo... a discussion you definitely DON'T want to start with me).



AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 23:56 18.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Too late for that, I'm afraid (I mean engaging in discussion...)... Loads of tough lovin'... loads and loads!
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 00:24 19.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

I am deadly serious.

I worked in Kosovo in 1999 and 2000 for something called the war crime trauma unit. So as much as I appreciate my friends in Belgrade, the Kosovars are real individuals to me, too, not simply objects demonised by media outlets intent on portraying them as drug dealers etc.

And as far as international law goes, my interest is in international humanitarian law. And before Kostunica gets taken seriously while whining about "illegality" and "violence" he'll have to arrest those hundreds of persons responsible for far more serious, non-debatable violations of rights, and not just those caught on video acquired by courageous human rights activists.

AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 01:25 19.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh,

www.diakonia.se/ihl

It's about Palestine, but it's IHL... a really good site, enjoy!
badreligion badreligion 12:50 19.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

AidaPalestine

I am not Palestinian (and let's not start on Palestine, it's a totally different shoe than Kosovo... a discussion you definitely DON'T want to start with me).


As a matter of fact, some 7 years of my life I've been living amongst the Arabs - in Q8, UAE and Iraq, and I feel quite sympathetic towards the Palestinians, as 3 of my Palestinian mates could tell you. If, for nothing else, then because the international law (humanitarian or otherwise, Hugh), doesn't work there either.
Sofroniye Sofroniye 10:42 20.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh Griffiths
I am deadly serious.

I worked in Kosovo in 1999 and 2000 for something called the war crime trauma unit. So as much as I appreciate my friends in Belgrade, the Kosovars are real individuals to me, too, not simply objects demonised by media outlets intent on portraying them as drug dealers etc.

And as far as international law goes, my interest is in international humanitarian law. And before Kostunica gets taken seriously while whining about "illegality" and "violence" he'll have to arrest those hundreds of persons responsible for far more serious, non-debatable violations of rights, and not just those caught on video acquired by courageous human rights activists.



So what are your qualifications ? B.A. in Psychology, Pol. Sci, ? We all have different interests but I see you are willing to "argue" about the international law so I was just wondering what is your expertise in that field?


Sofroniye Sofroniye 11:02 20.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

Hugh Griffiths
ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.


So what are you referring to precisely ? Your arguments are rather weak. I would have expected that you, like Albanians and their legal experts paid by drug money (and yes we can debate about that too) , would claim that 1244 does not guarantee integrity of Serbia but country which disappeared once Montenegro separated and then we could have discussed about UN Charter and procedures for secession. But your answer (while rhetorically nice) is rather empty in essence.

As for your comment about Jerusalem. I had an opportunity to visit it (without visa) and I can assure that Palestinians do not appreciate the fact that the Dome of Rock is controlled by Israel. Why don't you go to Gaza and try to explain to them that it is not bad that they need visa to visit Jerusalem :) Also I would be very interested in seeing your attempts to explain that point to one of my Egyptian and/or Iranian students....

But seriously now anything can be debated but...if you were at all familiar with SFRJ constitution you would know that all secessions were ILLEGAL since any type of secession required (under SFRJ constitution) consensus between all the nations. I also know that consensus was very popular in communist countries and rarely (almost never needed/required in the west) but. .. that was THE LAW which every single nation/nationality in SFRJ agreed to. Once you start making precedents it never stops. And once you start claiming that something is applicable only to a particular situation and cannot be use anywhere else you will run into mess... I could give you an example from Qur'an with that particular problem :) But I am not sure if you would be interested...I will just point to surah 9.5 and hadiths corresponding to that :) (related to particular event/time vs. general and the mess that came out of that)

mikimedic mikimedic 15:22 20.02.2008

Re: therapy?

Hugh -- great, I agree.

By the same token, do:

Serbs in BiH have the right to secede?
Ossetians from Georgia?
Abkhaz from Georgia
Chechens from Russia?
Basqs from Spain?
Turks from Cyprus?
Kurds from Turkey?

Don't give me bullshit. Plain Yes or No? Can you do it?
mikimedic mikimedic 21:07 20.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

if you consider the fact that Albanians had to know Serbian, but Serbs didn't necessarily need to know Albanian


It is certainly an interesting new concept in the human rights lawt. It is not sufficient, it seems, if the majority grants full scope of rights to minorities (like full use of their own language), but perhaps majority must now learn minorities' languages as well, in order not to offend minorities?

So every Serb in Vojvodina should now learn Hungarian and Slovakian?
OOORRRR every American in California, as of tomorrow my dear AIda MUST START LEARNING SPANISH???

Yes, I love it!!!

you must be a brilliant master of the human rights law. Are u coming to HR council in Geneva in March? Perhaps you deliver your statement there.

mikimedic mikimedic 21:11 20.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

ah yes, the trap! Beware of engaging in discussion with people whom we can charitably describe as being subject to too much propaganda for too long. Some tough lovin' needed here, clearly.


...and, yes, here we are, my favorite. if no substance to provide in response, accuse the other party of being brainwashed...
mikimedic mikimedic 21:18 20.02.2008

Re: Hugh Griffiths

my interest is in international humanitarian law


Don't start it. You wanna talk to me about Geneva 1945 Conventions and treatment of civilians and POWs? Ok... how about Guantanamo, as a start? Abu Graib? go on, man....
you worked for 'something' you say. Exactly. 'Some thing' you are....

Wim Roffel Wim Roffel 13:01 18.02.2008

You will miss Kostunica if he goes

For all his failures Kostunica is one of the few politicians who tries to keep to his own direction somewhere in the middle. That doesn't make him popualr in polarizing country. But I doubt that Serbia will be better off without him.
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 15:01 18.02.2008

Re: You will miss Kostunica if he goes

I think Serbia will be a whole better off without Kostunica. The man talks, but does nothing, fiddling while the country burns. He oozes negativity while offering no solution, democratic, radical, or otherwise.
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 18:03 18.02.2008

Re: You will miss Kostunica if he goes

Nobody will miss Kostunica if he goes...
Natasha Milicevic Natasha Milicevic 12:08 19.02.2008

Re: You will miss Kostunica if he goes

For all his failures Kostunica is one of the few politicians who tries to keep to his own direction somewhere in the middle. That doesn't make him popualr in polarizing country. But I doubt that Serbia will be better off without him.


I am really surprised that you think he is in the middle. He is practically a radical!
I haven't noticed any sign of an independent course in his political actions. His only trouble with opening-up to this miserable nation is the sweet taste of leadership. He may lack temper for the local taste but he is not lacking viciousness at all. Seriously, isn't his fascinating stubborn self-sufficiency without a decent vision, the key to every good dictator?

If I abstract from all those concerns for a moment, one thing is sure: if he disappeared today, there is only one reason why I would remember him well - Zoran Djindjic.
Godzila Godzila 19:44 18.02.2008

not so sure

I wish but I can hardly take an opinion (hm it is not even an opinion but rage) of few disturbed young fellas as something relevant. As you can see from this thread, it is not Voja's fault but McDonalds as always.
Dale Dale 11:05 19.02.2008

The REAL SERBIA

Hi to all;

I am new in this forum or blog but let me introduce myself. I am an american living and working is Serbia. I have come to love and respect this country and its citizens (especially my wife ;-) ). Since coming here I have been met with notthing but openness and friendship. Before coming to Serbia I lived in Germany and was never met there in this manner. My children (3 of them) are German / American and my oldest son has been here and can not wait to return.

Even though the US and other countries bombed the hell out of this country I have never experienced any form of discrimation or hate towards me.

As to the statements that have been writen here I can only say that I agree that if the initial talks had been done properly and BOTH sides met agreement that the move for independence would have been legal. However, this was not the case. The Albanians in Kosovo were PROMISED something that gave them no reason to talk with Serbian Officials. This is one reason that I can only say that "I am almost embarrished to say I am american"! But I am very proud to say I am TEXAN!!

I do not see what is to be gained out of recalling the Ambassadors or blocking political relations. Nor can I understand it when hooligans attack private companies and destroy Serbian property and endanger their own people and their children. This brings nothing but a bad image and does not show what I have learned as true Serbian Culture. The same hooligans that damage property and endanger lives also wear Nike and Addidas, Levi jeans and other note worthy clothing!!! I wish they could MAKE UP THEIR MINDS!!! But Kids will be Kids.

I do not support the move to Independence in this manner nor can I. I believe that it does violate international law.

Some say that Serbia can not live together in peace with Albanians, Moslims in general. Then please tell me why there is a Mosque in the center of Belgrade that nobody pays attention to. I have come to know Serbia in a different way. This country is full of acceptance but it can not except the fact that land that has been a part of Serbia for centries has been taken from them and this under the eyes of the UN and EU. This move only adds to the instability of the region and not the stability. Adding to the stability would have come from PRODUCTIVE talks with all sides.



Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 14:25 19.02.2008

Re: The REAL SERBIA

Well, Dale,

I think you make a good point when you say that you have been met by "openness and friendship" living in Serbia. Although I struggle to avoid stereotypes ,I have to say that people in Belgrade (and throughout the Balkans for that matter) are extremely open, friendly and hospitable in a way you don't find in many EU countries.

At the same time, today in Serbia, there is a casual, widespread rascism towards Albanians and I would caution you against assuming that Kosovars are the kind of drug-dealing, Islamist untermensch which some Serbian diplomats, a great many politicians and much of the media like to suggest.

They don't trust the likes of Nikolic and Kostunica, and if you read some decent history books you'll soon discover why.

Finally, I am not 100% sure which mosque in the centre of Belgrade you are referring to, but you might want to check whether much attention was paid to it back on 18 March 2004.


mikimedic mikimedic 21:24 20.02.2008

Re: The REAL SERBIA

Hugh --- you have some way to go to learn from Dave, aren't you?

As for perception, just tell me the views of New Yorkers after 9/11 towards you know whom?
Guantanamo? need to name more?
Domazet Domazet 15:45 19.02.2008

Hugh, my friend…

I wonder what’s your take on this:

Aid the Palestine
Check your facts please. Serbia obviously hasn't offered Albanians the right to self-determination, because they would have used that one a long time ago.

What do you think, how long ago is this long time ago? 1980s? 1940s? 1915s? 1878s? Before Mislosevic times? I would really like to hear your "humanitarian" law expert opinion...

Btw. how's my English? I'm not quite sure if I used quotation marks right. And you seem to be an expert...
Hugh Griffiths Hugh Griffiths 17:49 19.02.2008

Re: Hugh, my friend…

Your English is fine, Domazet, you're not so good with the slavic names, though, it's Milosevic, not "Mislosevic", but then you have been out of the country for a rather "long time", haven't you.

By the way, it is okay to be gay, so, don't hate yourself so much.

But do us all a favour and leave your anti-semitism on the way out. Homosexual jew haters don't have much of a future, as Ernst Roehm discovered to his cost.
Domazet Domazet 19:04 19.02.2008

Whoa Huey...

Homosexual jew hater
Is this info courtesy of MI6? Then I guess that the fact that my kids would enjoy the benefits of Nürnberg Laws makes me a very interesting case of Jew hating closet homosexual? This providing that Aid the Palestine confirms the existence of these laws.

Now, seriously, Huey, what caused this outburst? Annoying feeling of intellectual inferiority? Well Huey, don’t take that so hard. Your intellectual inferiority is amply compensated with your malice. Of the “humanitarian” kind, off course…

Btw, tell me, shouldn’t we use capital J in ‘Jews’?
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 20:42 19.02.2008

Re: Whoa Huey...

Domazet,

I sincerely hope your kids will not have anything to do with Nürnberg Laws, unless you intend to send them off to a war zone to become war criminals... but maybe you intend to do exactly that. (and I honestly have no clue what they have to do with Kosovo independence or anything I commented on).

Now, seriously, Huey, what caused this outburst? Annoying feeling of intellectual inferiority? Well Huey, don’t take that so hard. Your intellectual inferiority is amply compensated with your malice. Of the “humanitarian” kind, off course…

And D, may I ask what caused this interesting outburst? Please don't tell me it's your superb feeling of intellectual superiority?

Aid the Palestine

This one I won't even comment on... neither the grammar nor the connotation of the phrase.


Capitalise Hugh....for crying out loud!
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 20:42 19.02.2008

Re: Whoa Huey...

Domazet,

I sincerely hope your kids will not have anything to do with Nürnberg Laws, unless you intend to send them off to a war zone to become war criminals... but maybe you intend to do exactly that. (and I honestly have no clue what they have to do with Kosovo independence or anything I commented on).

Now, seriously, Huey, what caused this outburst? Annoying feeling of intellectual inferiority? Well Huey, don’t take that so hard. Your intellectual inferiority is amply compensated with your malice. Of the “humanitarian” kind, off course…

And D, may I ask what caused this interesting outburst? Please don't tell me it's your superb feeling of intellectual superiority?

Aid the Palestine

This one I won't even comment on... neither the grammar nor the connotation of the phrase.


Capitalise Hugh....for crying out loud!
Domazet Domazet 21:44 19.02.2008

See Bata Huey,

...I told you that Aid the Palestine won't be familiar with Nürnberg Laws. He/She seems to be unable to make the distinction between the Tribunal and the Laws. Don’t you think so?
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 23:24 19.02.2008

Re: See Bata Huey,

A big fat minus on my behalf, D. I should have known better.
But I'm always so happy to see when a man's feeling of intellectual superiority makes his testosterone shoot up the sky. Cheers to yours right now, you must be proud!

Hugh, I actually think you're wrong about this guy,,,, definitely not a Jew hater... rather an Arab loather..
Domazet Domazet 23:50 19.02.2008

Crno-bijeli svijet, la, la, la, la, la...

AidaPalestine
A big fat minus on my behalf, D. I should have known better.
But I'm always so happy to see when a man's feeling of intellectual superiority makes his testosterone shoot up the sky. Cheers to yours right now, you must be proud!

Hugh, I actually think you're wrong about this guy,,,, definitely not a Jew hater... rather an Arab loather..
Interesting logics, if I’m not a Jew hater I have to be an Arab loather? I wonder if the reverse logics apply? I mean, are you a Jew hater if you are not an Arab loather? What do you say, Aid the Palestine, are you an Arab loather?
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 23:55 19.02.2008

Re: Crno-bijeli svijet, la, la, la, la, la

No, sweetie, is the answer to all your questions. Any more?
Domazet Domazet 00:02 20.02.2008

So the answer is no...

Aid the Palestine
No, sweetie, is the answer to all your questions. Any more?
...at least in your case. What makes you think that in my case it might be different? Your feeling of moral superiority? Huh sweetie?
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 00:07 20.02.2008

Re: So the answer is no...

Actually yes.
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 00:11 20.02.2008

Re: So the answer is no...

...judging by your statements, of course.
Domazet Domazet 00:12 20.02.2008

Really?

Aid the Palestine
Actually yes.
Testosterone?
AidaPalestine AidaPalestine 00:20 20.02.2008

Re: Really?

No, don't use that in forming opinion about other people.
Domazet Domazet 00:55 20.02.2008

Don't say...

AidaPalestine
No, don't use that in forming opinion about other people.
... you almost fooled me, you know.
Dale Dale 11:57 20.02.2008

Hugh

Thanks for the advice;

I don't stereotype. I form my own opinion about each INDIVIDUAL I meet. Regardless of where they come from or their religion. I was raised a little different than most I guess. My great grand Mother was Arapahoe and my great grand father was half Scottish and half Apache! Guess you could say my family is a Heinz 57 blood type. So I was taught from a very early age what tollerance and exceptence mean. But I was also taught to stand up for what I believe to be right and just and what I feel is right. and to that I stand firm. I was also taught that respect only comes when you give it and that a Man is only as good as his word. To always stand on the side of justice and LAW and I see niether justice nor law in the manner that the Kosovo Independence was declared. Real Talks never really took place.

I mean no disrespect to you but I am very direct and very forward.
Domazet Domazet 16:58 20.02.2008

Bata Huey...

I hope you didn’t leave us for good because I would really (but REALLY) like to discuss few things with you.

First, I would like to hear your take on Aid the Palestine’s argument that the Kosovo Albanians struggle for the Independence is decades if not centuries long. Which comes as a stark contrast to your position that it is all thanks to Sloba? Why do you deny the continuity of the struggle to Kosovo Albanians? Could it be that you, as the loyal subject of Her Majesty, feel a little bit uneasy to discuss the Maoist roots of the latest Kosova Independists? Or you, again as the loyal subject of Her Majesty, feel that it could be unappropriate to mention that one of the previous generations of Kosova Independists capitulated full two years after their allies in Berlin?

Second, I would like to ask you to comment on the allegations that you are a closet homophobe (although some might argue that the accusations are inaccurate because, after you latest outburst, the term ‘closet’ could hardly be adequate).

And, last but most definitely not the least, I would like to discus eventual inconsistencies in the rules of capitalization in English language. I would really (but REALLY) enjoy the advice of such an expert.

Cheers,
D
mikimedic mikimedic 21:34 20.02.2008

Re: Bata Huey...

D....

Don't you think it is just logical once you have no arguments to run away? Which our dear Huey seems to have just done. And I'd looove to hear any comment to my yes/no question above. But am sure I will not hear it.

Well.... Sting said it long time ago....

It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.
A gentleman will walk but never run.

I do wonder if he will ever dare to post a new blog again.

But still, this caliber of 'people' are faceless, aren't they?

Greetings to all from Islamabad.

Domazet Domazet 21:53 20.02.2008

Oh he will...

mikimedic
D....

Don't you think it is just logical once you have no arguments to run away? Which our dear Huey seems to have just done. And I'd looove to hear any comment to my yes/no question above. But am sure I will not hear it.

Well.... Sting said it long time ago....

It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.
A gentleman will walk but never run.

I do wonder if he will ever dare to post a new blog again.

But still, this caliber of 'people' are faceless, aren't they?

Greetings to all from Islamabad.

...Miki, he will. He is not completely unqualified for what he does. He still possesses (or it might be better to say he lacks) certain characteristics that make him qualified...

Take care, Miki

Btw, how's in Islamabad? Peaceful I hope?
mikimedic mikimedic 04:45 21.02.2008

Re: Oh he will...

Very very quite, such a beautiful place. People are as nicest as I have ever seen.

Not to mention food.

All the best

Arhiva

   

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