Belgrade & Serbia are NOT Synonymous: In Praise of Sombor

Rosemary Bailey Brown RSS / 12.10.2007. u 18:02

Last week I mentioned here in passing that I liked architecture in Serbia.  A commenter replied, "Architecture? Which architecture? Many years ago famous architect Le Corbusier said about Belgrade that it is the ugliest city built on one of the most beautiful locations". 

This is just one of many times I've heard or read Belgrade-based people use the words Belgrade and Serbia interchangably -- as though they are two words that mean the exact same thing. For example, the Facebook Group Expats in Serbia proclaims, "Let's gather and relish the joys of Beograd together." 

I cannot begin to express how annoying this constant, knee-jerk, unthinking Belgrade=Serbia is for people living outside of Belgrade!  We all understand how big and important Belgrade is... but that is not an excuse for Belgraders to swagger about thinking they are the Serbian End All and Be All.  

You're not.  And that attitude is going to bite you in the backside someday because for people outside Belgrade it fractures Serbia into Belgrade vs Not, instead of unifying her as a whole.  But this line of discussion strays into politics and I'm not a political beast, so I'll stay out of it.

For the record, my Serbian home is in downtown Sombor.  As many citizens of Sombor say, it's the perfect place if you are a child or raising a family, and it's a fine place for retirement, especiallly early retirement if you can manage it.  If you're in your 20s, you'll probably go nuts and move to Novi Sad or Belgrade for a few years.  It's also not fabulous for many types of jobs (but what smaller cities are?)    

Sombor is beautiful architecturally, filled with art and artists, packed with cafes, and a great mix of people.  You'll find Serbians who've lived and worked around the world mixing with Vojvodina farmers.  It's a friendly town with just enough people that you never feel as claustrophobic as smaller places can make you, nor as lonely as bigger ones can.  And did I mention a house downtown can still cost as little as 35,000 Euros?  

I've done a lot of traveling, living in or visiting nearly 60 cities in 10 countries.  Sombor is one of my top five favorites of all time.  It suits me just fine.  It also suits a lot of natives so much that many times I've heard people debating if becoming a more famous town would ruin what they like about it.  Being a little artistic backwater is pretty awesome if you have a small-but-assured income.  (We'd all like to see a bit more economic vitality though.)  

I'm aware that this whole Belgrade-Is-The-Universe thing is partly a demographic movement which will inevitably someday change at least slightly.   Many people in Belgrade are perhaps the first or second generation off the farm.  They still have ties to the old village in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs, less education, and the horrible feeling (especially for young adults) of being stifled in a vacuum while real, exciting life goes on elsewhere.  

Most American citizens felt the exact same way about 90 years ago. My own grandfather raised with 10 other children in a sod hut (house made of earth) on a farm in the prairie jumped on cattle train going East to Chicago as soon as he hit 18... just as all of his siblings had done before him.  He never looked back.  

And now his grandchildren all sing praises of the various small towns and cities they've moved to around the US and world, from Newport Rhode Island to Sombor Serbia.  We won't move back to the farm, but we know from experience, you can have a higher quality of life in a small city than in anywhere larger. This thinking is so prevalant in the US that bookstores and magazines are full of stories of "The Best Small Towns in America". 

I bet you a bunch that in decades to come, Serbian magazines and books will cover similar topics...  In the meantime, the next time you hear someone in conversation refer to Belgrade as though it is completely synonymous with Serbia, please correct them for me.  Thank you.



Komentari (73)

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Solomon Solomon 18:26 12.10.2007

Sombor=Relaxed

I agree. Fully.
Belgrade does suck up a lot of the people, money and attention from the rest of the country.
It's common though.
People think France = Paris ; UK=London; Italy = Rome - it's the same misconception.
Honestly though, the view of Serbia=Belgrade would be an improvement.
We're still trying to get over the world view of Serbia='Bad Guys'.

In addition Sombor is supposed to be the capitol of Vojvodina Laid-back attitude.
Luc Luc 18:54 12.10.2007

Some other aspects

Living in a small town is not same in Europe and in the United States. As far as I know, in every European country (Italy, France, Germany) people coming from smaller places are concidered to be peasents and nothing more. There are many reasons for that- for instance the types of suburbs in USA and Europe, grater mobility in the States...

Two more aspects:

As a foreigner, you're not able to overlook many aspects, such as linguistic. Like in France and the Paris vernacular, Belgrade vernacular is most prominent, and it also used to be most prominent in SFR Yugoslavia. Even the people from Split preffered Belgrade-Serbian expressions and slang more than the one from Zagreb... As in France, people from Nis, Uzice or Sombor have not few handicaps when thay move to Belgrade, and many of them have to move. It's not if thay would fail in every way, but it's easier during the exam, job finding etc. if you show up with fine Belgrade pronaunciation.

It's quiet same with culture. I've seen many exceptions, but usally people from other places (like it or not) in Serbia cannot compare with Belgraders. It's quiet same in France for instance and Paris. Belgrade used to be a capital of a much bigger country, and when people "equal" Belgrade and Serbia, they just try to point out the best part country has. Like, for instance, everybody identifies Croatia with Adriatic Coast.

I'm not trying to say that pointing Belgrade out is a right thnig to do. I've just try to explain reasons, and to point out that they are universal or at least typical Euopean.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 19:17 12.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Having lived in Italy, I can safely say no one there considers Rome to be the be all and end all. (You'd risk certain anger from people Venice, Florence, Milan, Naples, etc., if you ever suggested it!) And it's far more fashionable for upscale Americans to vacation in Tuscany than Rome these days.

Having lived in the UK, I can tell you London is not synonymous with Britain, especially not over Summer weekends when everyone gets out to the countryside as fast as they can. And the current floods of Londoners who are abandoning the city to move to Europe (more than 100,000 in the past few years), are NOT for the most part moving to Paris, Rome, Madrid or any major city. They are moving, instead, to very small towns. Check out Amazon.co.uk's selection of books about moving overseas sometime. You'll see an endless list of bestsellers by expat Brits (Annie Hawes, Peter Mayle, Carol Drinkwater, etc.) who moved to vineyards, farms and decrepit villas.

In certain cultured circles, "the good life" in America and Western Europe is to be found in smaller towns, far more than you seem to realize.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 19:37 12.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

One other thing -- that linguistic prejudice is awfully sad, especially for a country with so many accents to celebrate in. The UK used to have the same problem... about 40 years ago the only voice you heard on the BBC was "official" English. However, during the 1960s and 1970s the British began to understand they could not speak as a nation in truth without recognizing all major British accents as "real". Now when you listen to the BBC, you'll hear a huge variety of accents from around that country.
oldtajmer oldtajmer 19:37 12.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

I think you need to differentiate between the UK and US (and Australia and Canada to a degree), where the love of suburbia and small towns is much more pronounced, from the rest of Europe (and possibly the world) which still mostly gravitates towards urban centers. Your Italy example cites other cities, not small towns, and remember Tuscany is where upscale Americans like to vacation, not where upscale Italians (or even upper middle class Italians ) like to live.

I think a good indicator is the price of real estate. E.g. France - Paris and the southern coast are astronomical, while everywhere else is cheap. I think you'll find a similar pattern in most non-Anglo countries - the price of real estate in the urban centers tends to be higher.

The problem with places like Sombor, actually anywhere but Belgrade and Novi Sad if you're talking about Serbia, is that there are not enough good jobs there. Until that changes, these towns will not become a desirable place to live.
oldtajmer oldtajmer 19:39 12.10.2007

linguistic prejudice

One other thing -- that linguistic prejudice is awfully sad, especially for a country with so many accents to celebrate in. The UK used to have the same problem... about 40 years ago the only voice you heard on the BBC was "official" English. However, during the 1960s and 1970s the British began to understand they could not exist as a nation in truth without recognizing all major British accents as "real". Now when you listen to the BBC, you'll hear a huge variety of accents from around that country.


That's a good point - I've even noticed that on B92 TV in the last year or two - notably there was one reporter with a strong Southern Serbian accent. Still not on RTS, though.
Altea Altea 19:50 12.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Luc
Living in a small town is not same in Europe and in the United States. As far as I know, in every European country (Italy, France, Germany) people coming from smaller places are concidered to be peasents and nothing more.
It's quiet same with culture. I've seen many exceptions, but usally people from other places (like it or not) in Serbia cannot compare with Belgraders. It's quiet same in France for instance and Paris.


Well, this may come as a surprise to you but it's not really like that. You cannot possibly compare the situation in France (Germany, Italy, etc.) with Serbia for at least one very good reason : cities in France (Italy, Germany, England...) have rather rich history in every possible way and a strong sence of local identity that can be traced back to Middle Ages. Many of them have been true economical and cultural centers in the past, and in no way are people who come from them considered to be less polite or cultivated, except by snobs, but then again, you can find those in every country and every culture.
Let's not forget that a great deal of Serbian towns (and not only Serbian, it's practically the same situation almost everywhere in the Balkans) are not as old and did not have the good fortune to develop into strong economic centers. And that's the same engine that brings life and prosperity into every city's cultural development even today.
I'm not saying that there are not any other places of interest in Serbia but Belgrade, far from it (my favorite is Subotica, so full of charm, for instance), but, unfortunately, the towns in Serbia do not have the same historical and economical weight comparing to their european counterparts.
(Ex. Can you really compare Nis to Florence? Or Venice? Or Munich? Or Barcelona? Or Lyon? etc.)
Luc Luc 00:14 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Rosemary Bailey Brown
Having lived in Italy, I can safely say no one there considers Rome to be the be all and end all. (You'd risk certain anger from people Venice, Florence, Milan, Naples, etc., if you ever suggested it!) And it's far more fashionable for upscale Americans to vacation in Tuscany than Rome these days.

Having lived in the UK, I can tell you London is not synonymous with Britain, especially not over Summer weekends when everyone gets out to the countryside as fast as they can. And the current floods of Londoners who are abandoning the city to move to Europe (more than 100,000 in the past few years), are NOT for the most part moving to Paris, Rome, Madrid or any major city. They are moving, instead, to very small towns. Check out Amazon.co.uk's selection of books about moving overseas sometime. You'll see an endless list of bestsellers by expat Brits (Annie Hawes, Peter Mayle, Carol Drinkwater, etc.) who moved to vineyards, farms and decrepit villas.

In certain cultured circles, "the good life" in America and Western Europe is to be found in smaller towns, far more than you seem to realize.


Sure you are right about Italy, but youa re missing the point. In SFR Yugoslavia it was the same thing with Sarajevo, Rijeka, Zagreb or Ljubljana as with Rome, Milano, Venice... but try to figure out that Italy is separated in small countries of wich every has only Milano, Rome, or Neapel - it would be the same as in Serbia with Belgrade. Btw., some place with long hystoric and proud tradition as Venice or Dubrovnik are cannot even be compared. Antway, there are no such places in serbia.

UK... hm, you don't actually think on UK when you are talking about Euorpean culture - at least not in (continental) Europe.

Smaller towns for immigrants??? Of course. The domestic inhabitants leaving and moving to capital in past 100 years for yhe reasons I mentioned - even though they know that they would have better opportunities to find job in they home town.
Luc Luc 00:18 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Rosemary Bailey Brown
One other thing -- that linguistic prejudice is awfully sad, especially for a country with so many accents to celebrate in. The UK used to have the same problem... about 40 years ago the only voice you heard on the BBC was "official" English. However, during the 1960s and 1970s the British began to understand they could not speak as a nation in truth without recognizing all major British accents as "real". Now when you listen to the BBC, you'll hear a huge variety of accents from around that country.


That doesn't change that there is still a high speech level. Once again, UK is not a good example for anything that has to do with Euorope. Try to get in high society of the UK having an eastender accent - no way. And finally, the standard English pronaunciation was to be learnt in the schools. People in Belgrade just talk like that - the language that they learn from mother is allready almost equal to standard. Like it or not, it's the sam thing all around the world - in New York, Paris, Rome, Moscow...

I'm really sorry, but the way it goes.
Luc Luc 00:23 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Altea
Luc
Living in a small town is not same in Europe and in the United States. As far as I know, in every European country (Italy, France, Germany) people coming from smaller places are concidered to be peasents and nothing more.
It's quiet same with culture. I've seen many exceptions, but usally people from other places (like it or not) in Serbia cannot compare with Belgraders. It's quiet same in France for instance and Paris.

Well, this may come as a surprise to you but it's not really like that. You cannot possibly compare the situation in France (Germany, Italy, etc.) with Serbia for at least one very good reason : cities in France (Italy, Germany, England...) have rather rich history in every possible way and a strong sence of local identity that can be traced back to Middle Ages. Many of them have been true economical and cultural centers in the past, and in no way are people who come from them considered to be less polite or cultivated, except by snobs, but then again, you can find those in every country and every culture.
Let's not forget that a great deal of Serbian towns (and not only Serbian, it's practically the same situation almost everywhere in the Balkans) are not as old and did not have the good fortune to develop into strong economic centers. And that's the same engine that brings life and prosperity into every city's cultural development even today.
I'm not saying that there are not any other places of interest in Serbia but Belgrade, far from it (my favorite is Subotica, so full of charm, for instance), but, unfortunately, the towns in Serbia do not have the same historical and economical weight comparing to their european counterparts.
(Ex. Can you really compare Nis to Florence? Or Venice? Or Munich? Or Barcelona? Or Lyon? etc.)



You're apsolutely right in one point - those Serbian cities cannot compare with Munich or Lyon, but nother can the size of Serbia with the one of France or Germany. I've lived in those countries for a while- Germany is special case because of not really human way of living in berlin after the World War II, but even today it's somthing special to say that you are "Berliner", not really special if you are a "Hamburger" :). As far as France is conciderred you are obviosly not considered with the situation (Paris vs. rest of France)
Altea Altea 09:29 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

Luc

You're apsolutely right in one point - those Serbian cities cannot compare with Munich or Lyon, but nother can the size of Serbia with the one of France or Germany. I've lived in those countries for a while- Germany is special case because of not really human way of living in berlin after the World War II, but even today it's somthing special to say that you are "Berliner", not really special if you are a "Hamburger" :). As far as France is conciderred you are obviosly not considered with the situation (Paris vs. rest of France)


For your information, I've been living in France for quite some time now and I do allow myself the right to think I know this country and its people rather well. However, I still don't agree with your point of view. It is true that some will consider them to be "better"/"cooler", whatever, because they are Parisians, but they are snobs, and as I already pointed out earlier - you meet that category of people in every country in the world. There are quite many Parisians who don't behave like that at all. (Many of them are not the newcomers. Some newcomers do suffer from "Pokondirena tikva" syndrome, I give you that).
As for Germany, the only very snob attitude I've noticed there during my stays was towards the ex-Easterners who were often looked down on.
dunjica dunjica 10:58 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

UK... hm, you don't actually think on UK when you are talking about Euorpean culture - at least not in (continental) Europe.


And vice versa. I hardly met an English (I am deliberatly not saying British) who would consider her-/himself an European.
Altea Altea 11:20 13.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

dunjica

And vice versa. I hardly met an English (I am deliberatly not saying British) who would consider her-/himself an European.


Well, they might not like to admit it, but it still won't change the facts. They are a part of European civilization in all its cultural diversity. But let's not get too far away from the subject here, shall we?
Sharpie Sharpie 12:02 15.10.2007

Re: Some other aspects

I agree with that.

I am a Scot and I consider myself to be more European than British.
oldtajmer oldtajmer 19:27 12.10.2007

City dwellers

I think some people are just inherently city dwellers by nature. I happen to be one of them. Maybe it's because I grew up in urban settings in large cities, that's just what I know. I just measure quality of life differently. Yes, my apartment is much smaller than the house I could have gotten for the same money, and parking is a bitch, and the occasional neighborhood party that runs too late, reaaaally pisses me off (especially since I became a parent), and the school system is not as good as in other places, and... much more. BUT, I just couldn't imagine life in a place where I would walk out on the street in front of my house and not see a single human being, unless it was a Saturday morning. Or not hear the hum of traffic at night. That just depresses me.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 19:45 12.10.2007

Re: City dwellers

Great point - that is exactly what I think most of my friends who live in Paris would say too. However none of them would ever make the mistake of assuming "France" and "Paris" were synonymous. And that really was my point all along. Belgrade is fabulous for those who love her. She's Just Not All There Is To Serbia. And I think those who love her are rather too prone to forgetting that fact. Serbia's too small a nation to be divided into many smaller factions... countryside vs city, Vojvodina vs Belgrade, Kosovo vs everyone else (it seems)... that way only leads to trouble. The only way to a happy future is to pull together as a single team all rooting for each other with every member recognized as bringing value of their own.

But, then it's said put three Serbs in a room and you'll have five political parties. So perhaps I'm just a crazy American
Altea Altea 19:59 12.10.2007

Re: City dwellers

Rosemary Bailey Brown
Serbia's too small a nation to be divided into many smaller factions...


So true. But don't let Belgrade snobism get you down, not all Belgraders are like that, besides those with an open mind know perfectly well that there is also life outside the capital, and some really charming places too.
oldtajmer oldtajmer 20:09 12.10.2007

Re: City dwellers

I absolutely agree. I would never say they are synonymous, au contraire! They are often near-opposites. I was just responding to your point about "the good life" being in suburbia and small towns.
Solomon Solomon 20:13 12.10.2007

Re: City dwellers

Sorry. I was unclear.
I wasn't suggesting that to the Londoner London=England; or that to a Englishman London=England. I was suggesting that to an average American, Czech and Japanese London=England, Paris=France etc. And I do mean AVERAGE.
Belgrade, though I love it, is doing a great diservice to Serbia by encompasing so much attention. Serbia's offer to visitors lies outside Belgrade. As a city Belgrade has little to offer that cannot be found elsewhere. You'd draw more visitors by developing the countryside.
Luc Luc 00:24 13.10.2007

Re: City dwellers

Rosemary Bailey Brown
Great point - that is exactly what I think most of my friends who live in Paris would say too. However none of them would ever make the mistake of assuming "France" and "Paris" were synonymous. And that really was my point all along. Belgrade is fabulous for those who love her. She's Just Not All There Is To Serbia. And I think those who love her are rather too prone to forgetting that fact. Serbia's too small a nation to be divided into many smaller factions... countryside vs city, Vojvodina vs Belgrade, Kosovo vs everyone else (it seems)... that way only leads to trouble. The only way to a happy future is to pull together as a single team all rooting for each other with every member recognized as bringing value of their own.

But, then it's said put three Serbs in a room and you'll have five political parties. So perhaps I'm just a crazy American

That's because france is 6 times bigger than Serbia
skyspoter skyspoter 20:55 12.10.2007

is that within USA?

I've done a lot of traveling, living in or visiting nearly 60 cities in 10 countries.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 21:43 12.10.2007

Re: is that within USA?

Across the US, a little in Canada but also in Italy, Belgium, the UK (including England, Scotland and Wales which are fairly different), Croatia (including Zagreb, Ogulin and the countryside) and of course northern Serbia. I have not been to Southern Serbia or Southern Croatia yet.

Next month we'll go to Dehli India and part of Nepal so it will be interesting to see how they "stack up"!
nsarski nsarski 20:59 12.10.2007

I have to compliment you Rosemary,

of all the people here who write blogs in English, you seem to have a special talent to touch the sensitive nerve of Serbians! Just look at the number of comments you attract compared to others.
Way to go, lady. Way to go!
Oh, and you actually respond to people's comments, unlike some other bloggers...:)
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 21:54 12.10.2007

Re: I have to compliment you Rosemary,

Actually it makes me a bit nervous. If I get a lot of comments then perhaps people are angry with me (oh dear), and if I don't get many perhaps I'm awfully dull. Blogging in America is different because there are far fewer comments per readership (perhaps one comment per every 100-200 readers, on a good day) and because no one expects the blogger to interact in the comment stream much. However, Serbs are Social as a people, and their blog interaction style is uniquely Serb! It's wonderful but also can be nervewracking.
nsarski nsarski 21:58 12.10.2007

Re: I have to compliment you Rosemary,

Well, it's understandable that so many people here comment - to many it is sort of a lifeline to other opinion. Just keep up the good work, and don't worry. Thanks again!
Isn't it swell that I'm sitting here in the Midwest talking to you in Sombor? Btw, I've never been there (don't ask me why), but I hear it's a beautiful little town. Enjoy your stay.
snezana mihajlovic snezana mihajlovic 22:02 12.10.2007

Re: I have to compliment you Rosemary,

nervewracking...just take it easy - whatever the outcome
question:
since you've mentioned that you've moved quite a lot, is it possible to expect some kind of a parallel-drawing-blog?
MaNdRaK MaNdRaK 19:03 21.10.2007

Re: I have to compliment you Rosemary,

It's not so beautiful - but quiet it is
Anytime I go home to visit my parents, I could sleep during whole staying :)
Here in Budapest is not so quiet, hehehh. And also life doesn't stop after midnight.
Brunehilda Brunehilda 12:05 20.05.2008

Re: I have to compliment you Rosemary,

Rosemary Bailey Brown
Actually it makes me a bit nervous. If I get a lot of comments then perhaps people are angry with me (oh dear), and if I don't get many perhaps I'm awfully dull. Blogging in America is different because there are far fewer comments per readership (perhaps one comment per every 100-200 readers, on a good day) and because no one expects the blogger to interact in the comment stream much. However, Serbs are Social as a people, and their blog interaction style is uniquely Serb! It's wonderful but also can be nervewracking.

This is why each Serb thinks their opinion is the most important, and furthermore, as an everage Serb has the opinion on almost everything he hears or sees, naturally he would want to express it.... :) Seriously, we do adore discussing, subject is of less importance... I think this is some kind of unexplainable national vice.... :)
skyspoter skyspoter 21:18 12.10.2007

Think again Rosemary

If you were half as well travelled as you like to think you are, then you would have realised that every single person in every single country thinks exactly the same about their capital city as you do about Belgrade! Of course a capital is going to be identified with the nation - that is what it is there for! Unsurprisingly, this annoys people who don't live there - people the world over believe that their home town is superior to any other - that's normal too. Try looking beyond cliches.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 21:47 12.10.2007

Re: Think again Rosemary

Ha - well I've lived in Washington DC and NOBODY there thought it was remotely the same thing as the nation. DC matters so little that citizens don't even have complete voting rights or congressional representation the way regular states do! When American politicians talk about "The heartland" they care so much about, they mean the center of the country, nowhere near DC. When the media talks about entertainment, business and culture, they mean mostly New York and the "Left Coast" but not DC. That doesn't mean it isn't packed with business, culture and politicians, just that nobody ever thinks of the city as central to LIFE or CULTURE in America.

By the way - while I know I'm better traveled than the average Serb or American, I don't remotely think I'm well traveled. I've never been to Asia, Africa, South America, the middle east, Australia.... I've really never been anywhere. But, a girl can dream.
s56a s56a 23:20 12.10.2007

U tem Somboru svega na volju...

I did compulsory military service on radars in Sombor 1968/9 and fell in love with a city. My last visit was in May.
Ten years later I moved from Belgrade area (Pancevo) to Ljubljana, Slovenia, pop. 200.000. They built big cultural house Cankarjev dom here and not much difference from Belgrade at that time. We were spared from Balkans conflict and enjoy EU now. Internet and SAT TV makes the physical location irelevant. I consider moving to the Adriatic coast as I retired last year but my wife wants to return to Serbia. We are coming for a visit in ten days time. My sister in love in Jagodina, 133 km south of Belgrade prepared a lot of food for us

However, I like big cities of light and mixed population. London is my second home since 1970. USA since 1976, mainly Boston and San Francisco area. I've seen a lot of countries including Baker Island under USFWS. Maui, HI is unforgetable.

Interesting comments on blog interaction. Serbs are curios about the way others see them but sometimes harshly try to enforce their views. They treat you in gloves with a few exceptions. Here is mainly ladies place.

I hope you met some Hungarians in Sombor in order to get better feeling of Vojvodina. Novi Sad is charming. Enjoy your stay & marriage. Visit Dalmatia and Bosnia. Read Lucy Moore blogs before that.

Best regards from Ljubljana from Marijan M. Miletic', MSc EE
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 05:07 13.10.2007

Re: U tem Somboru svega na volju...

Please do post here and let us all know what your experience is visiting Serbia after the US and Slovenia. Thank you! P.S. I'm definitely jealous of your trip to Maui, that is supposed to be paradise.
s56a s56a 22:15 13.10.2007

Re: U tem Somboru svega na volju...

Serbia drives me mad as it lags badly behind Slovenia. This would be my third visit this year.

How do you feel back in USA? I experienced first 22 hours internet failure. Enjoyed sunshine, flea market and hamradio instead.
alselone alselone 22:33 12.10.2007

Sombor

Sombor is really nice little town,

Next summer when main street reconstruction finally got finished, it will be even prettyer. :)

vucko vucko 22:54 12.10.2007

Sombor?

Sombor is an awfully unhealthy place to live in. I spent 5 weeks there back in 1995 and gained 8 kilos of weight, eating in the restaurant "Renesansa"

Kum Djole Kum Djole 23:06 12.10.2007

Re: Sombor?

I second that. I spent 49 weeks in Sombor in 96/97 and they fed us with canned liver patee made in 1969, and three day old bread loafs (hard enough to be considered for starting a subsidiary bricklaying business!)


Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 05:04 13.10.2007

Re: Sombor?

OK, no matter what food they served you, anyone who gains 8 kilos in 5 weeks has to share some of the blame. Either you were way too skinny beforehand or you ate/drank like a crazy person with no exercise when you were there. At least 1+ of those kilos was your own responsibility.
vucko vucko 10:41 13.10.2007

Re: Sombor?

Well that business trip was not field work on some local "salaš" for sure, so I can burn the calories. I am guilty for sure, but I like to transfer the blame to Sombor :)

Renesansa's beef soup quality has been a kind of reference to me since then, a measurement unit like farad (F) in capacitance (usual capacitor components are expressed in micro and nano farads) :)
zlizlaja zlizlaja 23:13 12.10.2007

16° 31' i 17° 06' 20''

alselone alselone 00:46 13.10.2007

Re: 16° 31' i 17° 06' 20''

Do you have a picture of Fruskogorska street. That's most beatiful street in Sombor. Small, nice, clean, old buildings and houses and very, very green.

zlizlaja zlizlaja 23:15 12.10.2007

46° 34' 15'' i 46° 03' 20''

Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 05:00 13.10.2007

Re: 46° 34' 15'' i 46° 03' 20''

I'm stuck over in the US right now for the next month on business and these photos are making me awfully homesick for Sombor!
DejanOz DejanOz 00:50 13.10.2007

It's only logical

Rosemary, I think you've probably missed my earlier comment on this same issue in your previous topic. Of course, you can make a big deal out of this if you wish, but for bloggers to assume that you are living in Belgrade, as an American woman in Serbia, is only to be expected. Only statistics, experience and simple logic are on their side.
Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 05:01 13.10.2007

Re: It's only logical

Good point!
Spacek Spacek 00:52 13.10.2007

Political aspect

I have lived in Belgrade and, right now, I live in big city of your country(USA). In political terms there is a lot of similarity in Serbia and here .During the Mislosevic time, resistance against his regime was born in Belgrade, not in Leskovac,Nis, Kraljevo.........etc.
Same thing is here;in my city, bumper stickers on the cars are against Bush. Bumpers stickers in suburban town, where I work, just 25 miles away,are pro Bush.
It's like, on big scale, difference between North and South.As I remember, Sombor is is still North?:):)
d j o l e d j o l e 09:00 13.10.2007

Nice comment

We all understand how big and important Belgrade is... but that is not an excuse for Belgraders to swagger about thinking they are the Serbian End All and Be All.

You're not. And that attitude is going to bite you in the backside someday because for people outside Belgrade it fractures Serbia into Belgrade vs Not, instead of unifying her as a whole.


I could not agree with you more. As somebody said before, if other places of Serbia do not feel and live good, neither will Belgrade.
Umetnica Umetnica 13:12 13.10.2007

You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

And that's why I love my hometown. I do not feel Serbian, I feel like my nationality is Belgrader. The last thing I would think is that there is equality sign between Serbia and Belgrade. Because being Belgrader means that you can be any nationality or religion, that you can come from any town or village in Serbia, and still be only Belgrader. Being Serbian means that you have to be of one particular nationality, that you have to be Orthodox Christian and heaven forbid that you are vegetarian or gay.

During 90's, when my country was falling apart, when Serbia was passionately in love with Milosevic and everything natzi-related, Belgrade was safe haven for free thought and resistance. Whenever I travelled, I answered "I'm from Belgrade" and not "I am from Serbia". Maybe I'd have different POV if I was from some other town/village. But I'm not.

All of my friends from other towns (Krusevac, Nis, Kraljevo, Pirot, Vranje, Petrovac, Negotin etc) came to Belgrade because they were unhappy in their hometowns. Does it mean their hometowns are shitholes while Belgrade is some sort of Xanadu? No, not at all. Belgrade is smelly, there are parts of it that are ugly as sin, traffic is hell, etc. The point is that Belgrade does suit my friends who moved here to live/work/study. Just as it suits me. The same way Sombor suits you, or that Smederevska Palanka suits my another friend who moved there with his family because he didn't want to raise his children in Belgrade.

But throwing a hissy fit because Belgrade is capitol of Serbia, and accusing Belgraders of considering themselves "center of the universe" is just plain rude.

Heck, I couldn't be happier if I saw rest of the Serbia investing and developing local business (like Indjija does). Maybe it'd be good idea to kick asses of corrupt local politicians/bosses instead of whining and accusing Big Bad Belgrade of being source of all misery in Serbia. Votes from Vracar and Stari Grad didn't bring Milosevic to power.
Spacek Spacek 17:33 13.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

Votes from Vracar and Stari Grad didn't bring Milosevic to power.


At some point they did. In 1990 or 1991 we had some second "first" democratic election, if I remember correct. But, what I remember very well it's that Milosevic won in Vracar without any doubt. In front of DS I was controller at the voting place. Vuk Draskovic was only serious competition to Sloba.At the DS meeting, before election, Zoran Djindjic, not well known at that time, and still with his pony teil&earing, told us that he is going to vote for Vuk.Not as his supporter, but as only way to make some changes
Sloba won easily!.
At Vracar, at time, in my opinion it was election between "partisans"( from Usce) that Sloba represented and Vuk's "cetniks", that they hated.
Everthing else, I agree with you, umetnice.
Miša iz Daleka Miša iz Daleka 22:30 13.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

Umetnica


Umetnica

During 90's, when my country was falling apart, when Serbia was passionately in love with Milosevic and everything natzi-related, Belgrade was safe haven for free thought and resistance. Whenever I travelled, I answered "I'm from Belgrade" and not "I am from Serbia". Maybe I'd have different POV if I was from some other town/village. But I'm not.


OK, I would just like to stress one thing. I'm from Niš, and I'm 22. Although I was pretty young at that time, I do remember year 1996. and massive boycot of state television here in Niš. I do remember going out on the streets in October 2000 and fighting for democratic Serbia. Niš was well known for its huge anti-Milošević population.


Being Serbian means that you have to be of one particular nationality, that you have to be Orthodox Christian and heaven forbid that you are vegetarian or gay.


Are you implying that all the Serbs outside Belgrade are intolerant? Being tolerant has nothing to do with the place where you were born. People tend to think that smaller cities make people narrowminded, but in my opinion, it's all about IQ. If your are smart enough, nothing can stop you realize the right moral values, whatever they are.
Umetnica Umetnica 05:17 14.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia


Are you implying that all the Serbs outside Belgrade are intolerant? Being tolerant has nothing to do with the place where you were born. People tend to think that smaller cities make people narrowminded, but in my opinion, it's all about IQ. If your are smart enough, nothing can stop you realize the right moral values, whatever they are.

No, not at all. I am implying that small towns generate more pressure for people to fit certain profile - white, Serbian, Orthodox Christian. If you don't go to church on Sunday in New York, nobody could care less. If you don't go to church on Sunday in Plainfield, IL you will get quite a few funny looks and will probably give your neighbours something to dish over. In fact, those poor unfortunate souls in Plainfield, IL who would rather sleep on Sunday morning then go to church, still go to church because of pressure from local community.
vucko vucko 14:46 14.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

I can't resist - I need to make a new animal acronym, similar to WASP: Cristian (Orthodox) White Serbian - COWS :)

Rosemary Bailey Brown Rosemary Bailey Brown 02:00 15.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

Small-minded small townspeople are the same, I think, the world over. You just have to find a town big enough so they don't rule it... anything over 40,000 usually works in my experience.

BTW: Speaking as a vegetarian, non-Orthodox, non-Slavic (not wasp-either) wife of a Serb, I'd like to thank everyone for making me feel so welcome in your midst. I guess that means most of you are urban Belgraders or Somborians!
vucko vucko 18:24 15.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia


BTW: Speaking as a vegetarian, non-Orthodox, non-Slavic (not wasp-either) wife of a Serb, I'd like to thank everyone for making me feel so welcome in your midst. I guess that means most of you are urban Belgraders or Somborians!

The pleasure is all ours - and if you are vegetarian, you can certainly eat lamb (My Big Fat Greek Wedding)
Hromi Daba Hromi Daba 18:53 15.10.2007

Re: You're right, Belgrade IS NOT Serbia

Umetnica
But throwing a hissy fit because Belgrade is capitol of Serbia, and accusing Belgraders of considering themselves "center of the universe" is just plain rude.


Speak for yourself. I don't really see a reason for your fascination with Belgrade, except perhaps local-patriotism. Belgrade loved Milosevich as much as any other city in Serbia. And i received my portion of "ustasha" name-calling there during dark ages - it wasn't as cosmopolitan then.

I never say "i am from Belgrade" out of country. I always say "i am from Serbia" and i don't understand why whould that imply being Orthodox or Slavic or whatever. I certainly don't want to be considerate of prejudices of other people. I do say "i am from Belgrade" in Serbia, because i am from Belgrade - no big lecture there, as in your case.

Umetnica
Maybe it'd be good idea to kick asses of corrupt local politicians/bosses instead of whining and accusing Big Bad Belgrade of being source of all misery in Serbia. Votes from Vracar and Stari Grad didn't bring Milosevic to power.


How about you Belgraders kick asses of your corrupt local politicians/bosses, instead of whining and accusing Big Bad Province of being source of all misery in Serbia? Don't you see how your way of thinking may offend someone from Nis or Valjevo or Novi Sad? Why would you want to do that? I don't see any benefit for you there.
Filip2412 Filip2412 00:22 16.10.2007

Why I don't like Belgrade as it is

Dear Umetnica,

As I remember, Milosevic was not turned down by BG but by provincials who had to come there on Oct 5th. Milosevic was turned down by jerks like Velja from Cacak and Zoki Zivkovic from Nis which is big shame to Belgrade, comparing the population of BG and Cacak or Nis.

BTW, we in Nis cleaned up SPS in the year 1996 and we had free media since then while in Belgrade SPS & JUL were in total power many years after.

And one more thing for all of you commenting here, please divide the population of the biggest city in Croatia, or in UK, Germany or France with the total population of the country and do the same for Serbia. When you compare the numbers you’ll see how Serbia is in much worse situation, having such majority of the population in one city.

True patriots if they just were on power and if they existed would move capitol to any other city, like Kragujevac, Nis, or anything, move more industry in Pirot, Bujanovac, Presevo or Subotica and Negotin for example and try to stop the dangerous trend which threatens to degrade our country to Beogradski pashaluk.
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 08:20 17.10.2007

Too Pretentious

Personally I can't stand the Belgrade accent. I live in Herceg Novi and during the summer invasion that's all you can hear. They also tend to speak very loudly to show off as if coming from Belgrade is something special and treat the locals as if they're an inferior breed. Like one of my friends always says, there are only a handful of true Belgrade families left. All the rest are 'cigani' who have emigrated from rural Serbia.

The towns in Vojvodina are much more attractive and people friendlier and more civilised.
vucko vucko 00:19 18.10.2007

Nečistoća - drugo pola

Personally I can't stand the Belgrade accent. I live in Herceg Novi and during the summer invasion that's all you can hear. They also tend to speak very loudly to show off as if coming from Belgrade is something special and treat the locals as if they're an inferior breed.
Like one of my friends always says, there are only a handful of true Belgrade families left. All the rest are 'cigani' who have emigrated from rural Serbia.

"I hate racism almost as much as niggers"?

Try earplugs during the summer. Herceg Novi depends economically pretty much of that invasion called "tourism".
MaNdRaK MaNdRaK 19:19 21.10.2007

Re: Too Pretentious

Well, being loud is not a "show off" case.
It's just the way they speak.
And having chance to meet and observe lots of people of different nations, I could say freely that Serbs are among loudest alongside Americans, Germans and Spaniards.
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 07:13 18.10.2007

Tomato Tourists

The only thing Herceg Novi gets from 'tomato tourism' is dirty beaches, old bangers clogging up all the parking spaces and screaming kids.
vucko vucko 11:08 18.10.2007

Re: Tomato Tourists

RiskyBiz
The only thing Herceg Novi gets from 'tomato tourism' is dirty beaches, old bangers clogging up all the parking spaces and screaming kids.

Well nice of you to promote tourism in your town.

Regarding the importance of tourism for Herceg Novi, these guys are of somewhat different opinion.

Here are some tomatoes for you about what Herceg Novi gets from tourism. Must be peanuts comparing to the Bijela shipyard and agriculture.

Nice that you love children, too.
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 12:11 18.10.2007

Re: Tomato Tourists

Frankly, people who drive their rust bucket from Serbia full of frozen chickens, pasteta and tomatoes are not tourists. They rent the cheapest room they can find, spend all day on the beach smoking and leave their stubs and other rubbish on the beach. In the evening they walk up and down the setaliste all night pushing the pram without even buying a drink. Then they wonder why the kids are always screaming and ill after all day on the beach and out all night instead of feeding them properly and putting them to bed.

Then they go back to Serbia boasting about their holiday 'na more'.

Believe me, noone needs this kind of 'tourism'.
vucko vucko 12:33 18.10.2007

Re: Tomato Tourists

Well that is really an elaborate analysis of behaviour of 66% of tourists coming to Montenegro.

Also, must be damn easy to have an opinion about how other people raise their children? You don't sound like someone to have own...

Anyway - I'm glad that you joined us, speaking about prejudices. You make this a kind of workshop-style exercise.
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 12:48 18.10.2007

Re: Tomato Tourists

It's not an analysis but a reality when you have to live through it.

Serbians always wonder why noone likes them and the truth is because they always think they're better than everyone else and bore you to death with their boasting. They're also very tight with money and love showing off.

The ones from Belgrade are particularly bad especially when the rest of the world regards Belgrade as a backwater full of rednecks. Just watching those parliamentary debates is enough to shame the whole of Serbia. Actually, they're not debates but monologues in stupidity.
vucko vucko 13:00 18.10.2007

Let's summarise

Ok, our current list includes:
- Their capital is regarded by the rest of the world as backwater full of rednecks
- Their MPs don't debate - they make monologues in stupidity
- They are not caring parents to their children
- They smoke
- They produce waste
- They drive crap cars
- Their children scream
- They don't spend too much in the evening hours in Herceg Novi
- They rent cheapest rooms in Herceg Novi
- They bring food from Serbia to save
- They are very tight with money and love showing off
- They think they're better than everyone

Anything else you don't like about Serbians and Belgraders and want to point to?
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 15:16 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

LOL!!

That's enough for now.

One positive (actually I'm not sure if it's a positive) but I have to tape 'Grand Show' every week and send it to my friend in the UK who is absolutely addicted. She says she's never seen anything like it!
vucko vucko 15:39 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

RiskyBiz
LOL!!

That's enough for now.

One positive (actually I'm not sure if it's a positive) but I have to tape 'Grand Show' every week and send it to my friend in the UK who is absolutely addicted. She says she's never seen anything like it!

Well if she enjoys it then how can it be negative :)

Otherwise - glad to help your "traumas" about Serbians/Belgrader's publicly stated. I hope you feel better now. Never mind that they are mostly (if not all) prejudices and generalisations. Can't be negative if you feel better now
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 17:24 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

Yes I do feel better now I've off loaded. I think I was definitely traumitised after having to put up with them this summer in particular. Hopefully they'll think it was too expensive here and next year decide to take their old bangers over to Bulgaria or Greece. Then again, they probably don't want them either.
vucko vucko 18:16 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

Yes I do feel better now I've off loaded. I think I was definitely traumitised after having to put up with them this summer in particular. Hopefully they'll think it was too expensive here and next year decide to take their old bangers over to Bulgaria or Greece. Then again, they probably don't want them either.

Well.. possibly... but what if... they liked it very much being in Herceg Novi and so they decide, all of them, to come again next year, and recommend it to their friends too? :)
RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 22:08 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

Oh no, I'm starting to have nightmares already.

Only two options really, close the border or get out of here for a couple of months.
s56a s56a 22:37 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

HN man, I was in your town often. I was coming from Slovenia via Croatia and I immediatelly notice your ecological country status with sophisticated people selling cheap goods made in China. I only found Kotor T-shirt in the whole Boka bay. Get some life and visit Belgrade. Many Montenegrians stay there after the studies...

Best regards from rainy Koper


RiskyBiz RiskyBiz 22:47 18.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

Have a look at the stuff being sold in Slovenia man, it's also made in China, just like everywhere else in the world.

Belgrade is dirty and dreary, I'd rather go somewhere with more to offer.

Maybe you should visit Belgrade more often instead of HN.

Best regards from sunny HN.
s56a s56a 20:06 19.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

I visited Boston, London, Muenchen, Podgorica and Belgrade dozen times in last year alone. No complaint about Belgrade apart from airpolution from cars exaust. Just returned from suny Koper harvesting olives. Dull it isn't in retirement! Enjoy "malo misto".
MaNdRaK MaNdRaK 19:37 21.10.2007

Re: Let's summarise

They'd be better to go anywhere else, considering well known montenegrian 'hospitality', and 'exceptional service' spiced up with their 'great working habbits' and 'superb manners'.
Talking about Your well known or maybe new found love for ecology, I still remember beach flooded with junk on Ada Bojana somewhat before season (so serbian tourists poluted it so badly year before, right? ) and sewer pipe plugged in main bay in Valdanos so You could develop some skin desease swimming there.
Let's say I still remember hotels without hot water in Budva, but admittedly never visited HN. And probably never will.
To everyone I know, I always promote Greece over Montenegro. Greece is also expensive, hot and dirty place filled with MOSTLY lazy and rude people, just like Montenegro, but at least they don't treat You like "brothers" there.
Note that I said MOSTLY, every respect to ones that are not so.

Arhiva

   

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